DiscussMormonism.com

http://drrobertepstein.com/esoi/

It's kinda funny...in the 1980s there were a lot of academics who said we needed to embrace homosexual behavior since it was "natural" and that most people were not really purely heterosexual. Then in the 1990s it shifted to pushing for acceptance because people were "born that way". I actually feel that it is practically impossible to label homosexuality because it truly is a behavior, not a set, genetic, trait. I would like to elaborate on this a bit more but I challenge people to take the Epstein test and see where they fall -- totally heterosexual, bisexual, or homosexual.

Fiannan wrote:http://drrobertepstein.com/esoi/

It's kinda funny...in the 1980s there were a lot of academics who said we needed to embrace homosexual behavior since it was "natural" and that most people were not really purely heterosexual. Then in the 1990s it shifted to pushing for acceptance because people were "born that way". I actually feel that it is practically impossible to label homosexuality because it truly is a behavior, not a set, genetic, trait. I would like to elaborate on this a bit more but I challenge people to take the Epstein test and see where they fall -- totally heterosexual, bisexual, or homosexual.

The problem with that test is that it requires an honesty that many closeted-gay homophobes aren't willing to employ. It's short, and you can easily skew the answers to wind up with the result that you want. I'm in the 25% range of being truly heterosexual according to that test, but answered honestly. If I felt badly about that, I could retake it - switch an answer or two and tell myself that I was totally, 100% hetero. A more subtle test - designed, in part, to expect dishonest answers - would be better.

Test for homosexuality? Might as well ask how many of have shared the same living quarters with a member of the same sex, night and day for nearly two years - never touching a person of the opposite sex. I have heard that prison does strange thing to a person living like this. Never quite the same afterward. Good thing sailors have shore leave.

moksha wrote:Test for homosexuality? Might as well ask how many of have shared the same living quarters with a member of the same sex, night and day for nearly two years - never touching a person of the opposite sex. I have heard that prison does strange thing to a person living like this. Never quite the same afterward. Good thing sailors have shore leave.

Mission experience? Prison experience? Ahem, which to choose?

SoHo wrote:

Fiannan wrote:http://drrobertepstein.com/esoi/

It's kinda funny...in the 1980s there were a lot of academics who said we needed to embrace homosexual behavior since it was "natural" and that most people were not really purely heterosexual. Then in the 1990s it shifted to pushing for acceptance because people were "born that way". I actually feel that it is practically impossible to label homosexuality because it truly is a behavior, not a set, genetic, trait. I would like to elaborate on this a bit more but I challenge people to take the Epstein test and see where they fall -- totally heterosexual, bisexual, or homosexual.

The problem with that test is that it requires an honesty that many closeted-gay homophobes aren't willing to employ. It's short, and you can easily skew the answers to wind up with the result that you want. I'm in the 25% range of being truly heterosexual according to that test, but answered honestly. If I felt badly about that, I could retake it - switch an answer or two and tell myself that I was totally, 100% hetero. A more subtle test - designed, in part, to expect dishonest answers - would be better.

I suppose it depends on what you call "'closeted-gay' homophobes" -- and in a way that is the point of posting this. Before one discusses the issue of homosexuality and bisexuality one must be clear on the terms, which is extremely difficult.

For instance, I once visited a site that dealt with Mormons and same-sex attraction. I remember reading this one lady's post where she was married, and faithful, to her husband but was distured by the fact she liked to view other women in more than a friendly fashion, including viewing internet porn with women. Was she bisexual? If so, I know lots of "heterosexual" women who admit that they find women more physically attractive than men and I know a lot of women who, if given a choic e, would rather view tow women having sex than a man and a woman. If every woman out there who, if given a choice, would rather paint a nude woman in an art class, or watch a woman strip rather than a man, is considered bisexual then we may as well divide our Relief Society into bi and straight because you will wind up with a huge percentage of the population being bi.

I admit that this test seems Freudian based. One who says they are not all that attracted to people of the opposite gender (asexual?) may be classified as being less heterosexual since the psychoanalytic school of thought would say something is going on in the sub conscious -- denial. Also, if sone answes that they have never had a relationship with a member of the opposite sex then they might also get more a bi rating. That said, it still is getting at the idea that sexual orientation is not fixed, and implies that it is not all that genetic.
For instance, what if someone dreams or fantacizes about same-sex sex? That gets you a higher rating on this scale towards bi or homosexuality. It may indicate either that you are in denial if you are anti-gay or feel you are totally heteroxexual but I suppose, again, it is definitions. Many women and a few men, who would never set foot at a gay parade might have these fantasies -- might even like same-sex porn, but does that make them gay or bi?

My beliefe is that same sex attraction (or what many in the Church call SSA) is not a problem unless it consumes you psychologically and you feel threatened by it, or it prevents you from having a relationship with your opposite-sex husband/wife. The behavior is what is discussed in the scriptures. Also, just to put women's minds at ease, in the 10 Commandments a woman is not under the obligation of not coveting in the sexual context. True, that is generally seen as a reference to being able to covet a married man since she too could become his wife but then again there was no penalty for female-female sex in the Mosaic Law.

Funny that on a thread about taking a "gay" test, there is a banner ad for Atlantis gay cruises right under the paragraph.

What are the odds of that?

As for me, I kind of wish I were gay so I could cruise the bars and never strike out. It gets old trolling for hot ladies and coming up empty time after time.

Tchild wrote:Funny that on a thread about taking a "gay" test, there is a banner ad for Atlantis gay cruises right under the paragraph.

What are the odds of that?

As for me, I kind of wish I were gay so I could cruise the bars and never strike out. It gets old trolling for hot ladies and coming up empty time after time.

That is hillarious!

Fiannan wrote:http://drrobertepstein.com/esoi/

It's kinda funny...in the 1980s there were a lot of academics who said we needed to embrace homosexual behavior since it was "natural" and that most people were not really purely heterosexual. Then in the 1990s it shifted to pushing for acceptance because people were "born that way". I actually feel that it is practically impossible to label homosexuality because it truly is a behavior, not a set, genetic, trait. I would like to elaborate on this a bit more but I challenge people to take the Epstein test and see where they fall -- totally heterosexual, bisexual, or homosexual.

First of all, I'm comfortable enough to say that I'm gay. I am not an expert in genetics or human sexuality, so I can not give an expert opinion on current theory on where our sexual orientations come from.

However, I do know that for me it's not just a behavior. I am attracted to men. I didn't choose this. As far back as I can remember, I've been attracted to other males. This has caused me quite a number of problems in my life that I'd rather not have, including my disaffection from the church. Trust me, it'd be a WHOLE lot easier to be able to choose.

It's not that way. I'm sorry that you can't accept it, but it's true. Whether purely genetics or environment, it's who I am. I've heard the "choice" opinion a number of times, but NEVER from an expert, ALWAYS from someone who has pre-labeled homosexuality as a sin.

This is very hard for me, especially considering the impact this has been on my family and friends, many of whom are strongly in the church. I know the church's stand on homosexuality, or "same sex attraction", as has been explained by my bishop, my stake president, and several church publications. I know that, if I chose to be completely celibate and quiet about my nature to others in my ward, I could be a member in good standing, including going through the temple. And the church would fully support me if I chose to marry a member of the opposite sex, even if for companionship. All for the promise that God, through the Atonement, could restore my broken sexuality and give me a wife. And for some, that might be enough. But I couldn't live my whole life in misery just on the chance I'd finally be happy in death. That's not a life worth living. I'd rather be happy, in love, and find out it's true, than be miserable and discover it's all crap.

I am sorry for being somewhat frank, but I am tired of the insinuations that I threw away friendships and family relations and chose to become a societal pariah within the church and adjoining community just so I can "sin a little".

I only hope you are willing to open your eyes and your heart.

Thanks.

Hi AitW,

BEAUTIFULLY stated! Thanks for sharing your experience. We need to hear your voice!


Welcome to the board.

~td~

I took the test. My mean was 2 and my orientation range was 4. Here is what at says about the scores:

The range from your lowest score to your highest score is your Sexual Orientation Range (SOR). The lower your scores, the more heterosexual your orientation. The higher your scores, the more homosexual your orientation. The wider the range, the greater your sexual flexibility and the more choice you have about how to behave sexually. The center point of your SOR is your Mean Sexual Orientation.

In case you haven't take the test, a score of 0 is completely hetero and 13 is the end of the homo range.