Book of Mormon (er, -- of Solomon)

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_Uncle Dale
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Re: Book of Mormon (er, -- of Solomon)

Post by _Uncle Dale »

MCB wrote:...

I found more than 30 content parallels with both volumes of the work.
...


Did you notice the supernatural, magical gift that appears suddenly
one morning in the camp of the two combined, rival factions of
wandering brethren?

Mormons have compared this "Toltec" story to that of the Liahona --
but if Spalding copied Clavigero, this particular "content parallel"
appears in a part of the Book of Mormon where Jockers finds very little Spalding
"voice." So, perhaps it is not Spalding's textual borrowing after all...
???

UD
-- the discovery never seems to stop --
_MCB
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Re: Book of Mormon (er, -- of Solomon)

Post by _MCB »

That question has appeared to me, too, whether it was Rigdon or Spalding who inserted some of these. My technique is to initially look for content parallels without regard to how they may have gotten there. Then to confirm by asking that question. Then to double confirm through methodologies like Jockers.

I will do another review of Clavigero, see if I can find more.
Huckelberry said:
I see the order and harmony to be the very image of God which smiles upon us each morning as we awake.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... cc_toc.htm
_Uncle Dale
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Re: Book of Mormon (er, -- of Solomon)

Post by _Uncle Dale »

MCB wrote:...
I will do another review of Clavigero, see if I can find more


Here’s a summary of something I said elsewhere recently:

So far as I can discern, all of the magical devices in Spalding’s Roman story
and in the Book of Mormon are his inventions — or adaptations from other
sources, whether meant for satirical purposes or not.

1. Lobsaka’s flying machine — an adaptation of the flying ability of
Quetzalcoatl,the Aztec god of the air — (taken from Clavigero)

2. The Liahona — an adaptation of the magical Divine gift that suddenly
appears in the camp of the migrating Aztecs — (taken from Clavigero)

3. Jaredite submersibles — taken from Southey’s mention of Merlin’s
submarine, coupled with the biblical ark of Noah

4. Shining stones — taken from Southey’s mention of the shining stone in
Merlin’s submarine — coupled with traditions of a light in Noah’s ark

5. Seer-stone — taken from Solomon Spalding’s own Revolutionary War
experiences among necromancers in Rhode Island — probably including
the Stafford family, who later settled next door to Joseph Smith, Sr.

6. Interpreters — probably an adaptation of the Roman story’s seer-stone,
but also related to the “urim” which provided light in Noah’s ark

Here’s a short-cut to the origin of the Liahona, in Clavigero:
http://olivercowdery.com/texts/1806Clv1.htm#pg154a

Quote:

>Proceeding from the country of the Zapotecas towards the south …
>in the year 1196 they [the first Aztecs] arrived at the celebrated
>city of Tula.
>
>In their journey from Chicomoztoc to Tula, they stopped a while in
>Coatlicomac, where the tribe was divided into two factions, which
>became perpetual rivals, and alternately persecuted each other. This
>discord was occasioned, as they say, by two bundles which miraculously
>appeared in the midst of their camp … they prized them more than the
>precious stone.
>
>They who appropriated to themselves the gem were those, who, after the
>foundation of Mexico called themselves Tlatelolcas… they who took the
>pieces of wood were those who in future bore the name of Mexicans…
>
>Notwithstanding this dissention both parties travelled always together
>for their imaginary interest in the protection of their god…

And a follow-up from Sorenson, in “Book of Mormon Authorship Revisited”

Quote:

>…The Título de los Señores de Totonicapán, another lineage history,
>speaks of “the precious gift which our father Nacxit gave us; it will
>be useful to us, because we have not yet found the place in which we
>are going to settle” (p. 205); — in other words, it served as an
>instrument to receive divine guidance as to where they should travel
>and settle.
>
>Carmack,following Nicholson, says that “this sacred symbol of power
>corresponds precisely” with the sacred bundle revered by descendants
>of the Toltecs in central Mexico. There it consisted of green stones
>(jade or turquoise) set into pieces of wood with holes bored in them
>and wrapped in cloth mantles; it symbolized “the hearts of [their]
>gods” (see Carmack, “Toltec Influence,” 73).
>
>I find the similarities to the Liahona and the ” interpreters” of
>the Nephites striking. The Liahona was a guide for Lehi’s party when
>they had “not yet found the place in which they were to settle.” The
>interpreters were sacred stones set in a device to facilitate their
>handling. Both instruments were divine gifts…

Of course Sorenson does not mention that Clavigero was the source for
the Toltec/Aztec tradition of the sacred gift that appeared suddenly in
the camp of the two rival factions, migrating to a new home under the
direction of their God.

Of course Sorenson does not mention that this tradition was made available
to readers like Solomon Spalding, by writers like Robert Southey, who
re-told Aztecs stories in his fictionalized Madoc epic long before the Book of Mormon.

It’s kinda like saying “I got this book from my ancestors,” without
bothering to mention that it was your uncle who gave it to you, at a
certain date, etc.


Dr. Sorenson simply leaves out the early 19th century “middle-man” writer(s),
and tells us how the 1830 Book of Mormon Liahona story INFLUENCED BACKWARDS IN
TIME, the creation of preColumbian American religious traditions. -- Or so it
appears from my perspective, reviewing all of this from the year 2009, and
seeing that the Mormons credited the 1830 Book of Mormon Liahona story to Nephite
traditions that somehow influenced the writings of Claverigo, long before
that 1830 Book of Mormon was ever submitted to the publisher.

???

UD
-- the discovery never seems to stop --
_MCB
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Re: Book of Mormon (er, -- of Solomon)

Post by _MCB »

Lol Mormon logic. I'll have to re-download the whole text. Yes, you had mentioned that flying bundle-- I personally though that it was too distant a parallel to be worth mentioning, but since the apologists have addressed it I suppose I should. rolls eyes.
Huckelberry said:
I see the order and harmony to be the very image of God which smiles upon us each morning as we awake.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... cc_toc.htm
_Uncle Dale
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Re: Book of Mormon (er, -- of Solomon)

Post by _Uncle Dale »

MCB wrote:...
that flying bundle
...


Perhaps the native American Toltecs simply could not remember
the correct details, from the days of the white and delightsome
Laman and Lemuel??? As the Book of Mormon says, the corrupt Lamanite
recollections of their first (Israelite) ancestry were "foolish traditions."
In fact, the Nephite missionaries reportedly labored to banish all these
"foolish traditions" from the minds of the hostile Lamanites, just as the
later Mormons labored to do the same with Navajo kids, Ute kids, etc.

Do you see a pattern here?

UD

(added: -- But, to paraphrase Hugh Nibley, one hundred such textual
parallels, or one thousand of the same -- they all add up to nothing.
Lester E. Bush, jr. told me much the same in 1982 -- That without some
quantifiable numerical data to back them up, textual parallels are a
product of the readers' bias and subjective interpretation. Unless the
parallels align with Jockers' word-print data, they may be nothing more
than your imagination at work -- call it "parellelomania," if you will).
-- the discovery never seems to stop --
_Uncle Dale
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Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:02 am

Re: Book of Mormon (er, -- of Solomon)

Post by _Uncle Dale »

Uncle Dale wrote:...
later Mormons labored to do the same with Navajo kids, Ute kids, etc.
...


In the 1970s I was in Ogden, Utah, employed with the U.S. Government
and had an opportunity to work side-by-side with a Navajo cartographer,
who had connections with the Intermountain Indian School in nearby
Brigham City. The stories of LDS attempts to either discredit or somehow
reinterpret his ancestors' traditions were legion.

Through this connection, I became acquainted with Glen Johnson, a teacher
at the school -- who invited me into his classrooms and home, for many a
discussion of goings-on at the school.

Although it was a Federally managed institution, the majority of the teachers
and staff there were Mormons, and the LDS influence upon the Indian kids
enrolled in the school was (as Glen put it) overwhelming. LDS activities
were not officially allowed in the classrooms -- but after instructional hours,
on and off campus, the LDS teachers held "family home evening" and other
LDS-designed events. In some of these gatherings the Indian students
were continually informed that their ancestral traditions were wrong, and
that the Book of Mormon preserved their true ancient story -- etc. etc.

Glen attempted to oppose this influence by hiring a local artist to depict
preColumbian traditions of Spider Woman, and other lore drawn from
Hopi and Navajo stories. But somehow the school authorities (or somebody)
put a stop to Glen's efforts, after only a few illustrated stories had been
commissioned. I'm not sure how many of the students there ever were able
to read them.

They had constant exposure to the Book of Mormon, however -- until the
facility was closed down and the kids sent back to their families.

UD
-- the discovery never seems to stop --
_Benjamin McGuire
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Re: Book of Mormon (er, -- of Solomon)

Post by _Benjamin McGuire »

Ben,
Could you run the same statistics on this?
http://olivercowdery.com/texts/1804Clav.htm
All I saw there was 2 pages of text. Is this what you were referring to? Is the rest of the text available in an electronic format someplace?

I see a full copy on google books, but those are very basic OCR files, and have a lot of mistakes. I could use that - recognizing that my results would be quite flawed (each orthographic error would add unnecessary and probably unique vocabulary and so on).

Ben
_Uncle Dale
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Re: Book of Mormon (er, -- of Solomon)

Post by _Uncle Dale »

Benjamin McGuire wrote:...
Is the rest of the text available in an electronic format someplace?
...


Yes, it is -- here:

http://olivercowdery.com/texts/1806Clv1.htm

But I am finding practically nothing in the way of shared phraseology
between Clavigero and Spalding. I think that the former text having
been first of all written in Italian, and then translated into British
English, may account for what I think is a low value of shared phrases.

There are thematic parallels, of course -- since Clavigero and Spalding
both are recounting their narratives from a preColumbian setting. But,
as you and I previously agreed, thematic parallels are inconclusive.

Another possible source for thematic parallels is Acosta's history, here:
http://olivercowdery.com/texts/1604Acos.htm

In some of his accounts, Acosta tells of great warfare conducted by
neighboring brethren -- a circumstance almost unique for the Valley
of Mexico in the early Aztec period, when numerous city-states had
large populations of warriors who engaged in continual conflict.
Since those city-states were located in close proximity to each other,
huge troop movements and great battles could be conducted in
short periods of time -- reminiscent of Spalding's Sciotans & Kentucks.

UD
-- the discovery never seems to stop --
_MCB
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Re: Book of Mormon (er, -- of Solomon)

Post by _MCB »

I know, Dale, the brainwashing and deculturation is pernicious. The windigo stories are ignored. We know that something happened, and it was relatively recent.

Barnes and Noble has a free download available, but you need a credit card to access it. I got an adobe reader pdf file a few weeks ago, wich contains the entire work, but it is no longer available. It is riddled with the antique f for s and cl often times comes through as d, so it needs some fixing up. I could e-mail you that file. Along with what I have already written if you are interested, unless my committee has already passed it on to you.

There is another volume not on your website which describes Cortes' invasion. There are parallels there also.

So what about Clavigero and Book of Mormon phraseology? It is reasonable that Rigdon had access to it, since it was a popular book.
Huckelberry said:
I see the order and harmony to be the very image of God which smiles upon us each morning as we awake.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... cc_toc.htm
_Benjamin McGuire
_Emeritus
Posts: 508
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:42 pm

Re: Book of Mormon (er, -- of Solomon)

Post by _Benjamin McGuire »

It's not an antique f for an s. It's actually a long s. It used to be a part of the language. I blogged on it once a long time ago here:

http://ben1972.xanga.com/567147035/the-long-s/
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