Why LDS Mormons are not Christian.

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_MsJack
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Re: Why LDS Mormons are not Christian.

Post by _MsJack »

Ray A wrote:It's difficult to make a baptismal covenant when you're only a week old. Unless "goo-gah" counts.

That's rather a side-issue. It's not difficult to make a baptismal covenant on behalf of someone else; Mormons do it with baptism for the dead all the time. In both cases, I'd want to look at what exactly the subject is being covenanted into.

Besides, lots of churches practice infant baptism. I don't think infant baptism tells us very much that's meaningful about a group's theology.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

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_Gadianton Plumber

Re: Why LDS Mormons are not Christian.

Post by _Gadianton Plumber »

Jersey Girl wrote:GP,

Have you abandoned this thread? I need to know, for my own sake, how many oars are in the water here.

I feel like I was wading out a ways near San Diego. One moment there was sand, the next there was a thousand feet of water under me.
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Why LDS Mormons are not Christian.

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Gadianton Plumber wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:GP,

Have you abandoned this thread? I need to know, for my own sake, how many oars are in the water here.

I feel like I was wading out a ways near San Diego. One moment there was sand, the next there was a thousand feet of water under me.


Lost your footing, did ya? ;-)

I still have at least one oar in the water. I'll keep paddling.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Ray A

Re: Why LDS Mormons are not Christian.

Post by _Ray A »

Jersey Girl wrote:Then how about Confirmation or First Holy Communion, will that work for you?


There are no covenants involved in Confirmation as far as I'm aware, or remember. It's the adoption of a patron Saint, and the beginning of formal confession. There have also been disputes (historically) in Catholicism about the necessity of Confirmation. David Waltz would be the man to clarify this (where did he disappear to after Elder Ballard wrote him?)
_beastie
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Re: Why LDS Mormons are not Christian.

Post by _beastie »

The divisions don't change the nature of God or Jesus, beastie. When Joseph Smith changed the nature of God and man, as well as God's relationship to man, he effectively took Mormonism off the Christian highway and created a road of his own that excepting the surface terminology, in no way resembles Christianity and it doesn't claim to.

Mormonism is a Christian heresy and as richardmdborn pointed out, it more closely resembles the Paganism that is condemned throughout the Bible, which Mormonism claims to accept as scripture.


They do change the nature of God and Jesus, and Mormonism certainly does claim to resemble Christianity. The nature of the trinity is all about the nature of God. The reason the Nicene counsel was held was to resolve these very serious disputes about the nature of God. That counsel decided that nontrinitarianism was heresy from there on out. Yet very early Christians did adhere to some of these “heresies”.

Are you saying that mainstream Christianity is free of Pagan influences?

Because as I implied earlier, the nature of the godhead doesn't change the nature of the God of Christianity, beastie. It doesn't matter if three are working in concert or separately, so long as they are speaking with "one voice" and sending the same "message".

Joseph Smith changed the voice of God, he changed the very nature of God in relation to mankind.


It does change the nature of god – that is the very essence of disputes over the godhead – the nature of God. And Mormonism does claim that Godhead speaks in one voice.

What Joseph Smith changed, going by your earlier posts, was asserting that man could become like God. I agree this is a serious division, and completely justifies Mormonism being labeled nonmainstream. Yet why is this alone enough to justify calling Mormonism nonChristian, but it’s ok for other Christian sects to define the godhead in seriously different ways and still be called “Christian”?

I believe that they do make Mormonism, non-Christian.


I’m trying to figure out the difference between this statement and this:

The argument should not be in terms of whether or not Mormons are Christians.


Are you saying that Mormonism is nonChristian, but Mormons may be Christians? How could that be, if they believe in Mormonism?

From the BBC comedy series Yes Minister

"An atheist clergyman could not continue to draw his stipend, so when they stop believing in God they call themselves 'modernists'."


My priest was not an atheist.

Do you think that other mainstream religions aren’t really Christians?

Jack - do you believe baptism is necessary to be a Christian?

Well, there's two dimensions to answering this question for me: the spiritual one and the classification question.

As far as classification goes in the study of religion, no, Trinitarians are not the only Christians.


I'm only talking about classification in the study of religion. I understand that individual Christians feel a particular loyalty to the theology of their respective faith, and that they would be spiritually uncomfortable with the claims of other faiths.
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_beastie
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Re: Why LDS Mormons are not Christian.

Post by _beastie »

I asked:

My old Episcopalian priest told me that he didn't believe in the Virgin Birth - he believed Jesus was "made divine", or "made God's son" through his holiness. Is he Christian?


Jersey Girl replied:
No.


So now one must believe in the Virgin Birth to be called Christian?
Last edited by Tator on Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Why LDS Mormons are not Christian.

Post by _Jersey Girl »

beastie
Are you saying that mainstream Christianity is free of Pagan influences?




No. Where did I say that?
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Ray A

Re: Why LDS Mormons are not Christian.

Post by _Ray A »

The other point about whether or not Mormonism is Christian is the Book of Mormon itself. Remember, in spite of all the post-1830 doctrines, the Book of Mormon is the "Keystone" of Mormonism (and it seems to be gradually going back to that position since 1985 and E.T.Benson's emphasis on it).

Have the Evs and other fundamentalists defined the Book of Mormon as "non-Christian"?
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Why LDS Mormons are not Christian.

Post by _Jersey Girl »

beastie wrote:I asked:

My old Episcopalian priest told me that he didn't believe in the Virgin Birth - he believed Jesus was "made divine", or "made God's son" through his holiness. Is he Christian?


Jersey Girl replied:
No.


So now one must believe in the Virgin Birth to be called Christian?


beastie...no. I didn't say that, did I? When I say it, then take exception to it.

My "no" had to do with your former priests belief that Jesus was "made divine" or "made God's son" via his behavior or what have you.

Christian's believe that Jesus was ALWAYS God's son and ALWAYS divine.

As in "nature of God/Jesus", beastie.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Why LDS Mormons are not Christian.

Post by _Jersey Girl »

beastie,

You are using the same arguments that Mormons use in discussion to defend their religion as Christian. You are leaping to conclusions and putting words in my keyboard that haven't come out of it.

I'll make one more reply here and then I probably need to go.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
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