DiscussMormonism.com

Before I begin, allow me to equivocate a tad. I realize I made a strong statement that cannot be defended without some qualifications. First, since all this nonsense is essentially fiction, anyone can alter the story and still be accurate. I can make Goldilocks a rat in her story and it is still valid. Second, I can only argue from a theological point of view, so I suppose I must somewhat arbitrarily define the term "Christian." I hope, however, that my definition is fair and relatively accurate. Finally, I believe that Mormons and anyone else can claim any title for themselves. If they want to call themselves Christian, that is their business. (but so help me, if you LDS Mormons try to own the term "Mormon" and limit its usage by outside groups, I will turn this thread around!) That being said:

Nyal's arbitrary definition of Christianity. A Christian sect must include:

1. Any religious group that deifies Jesus of Nazareth, eternally.

2. Any religious group that keeps Christ as the most important element of the faith. Jesus is central, not ancillary to the story.

3. Any religious group that believes (and behaves accordingly) that the Atonement is accomplished through the sacrifice of Christ. This is also central to the story.

How do evangelicals stack up?

1. Jesus is a god. He has always been a god, is co-eternal with the Father (and even a reflection of Him).
2. Christ is the subject of almost every sermon. Every lesson informs the many aspects of Christ and his interaction with humans. Prophets, rituals, etc. etc. are symbols or functions of Christ.
3. The atonement is everything. If one trusts in Christ, one has his sins covered and is assured salvation. Works are performed both to glorify the God that saved, but also for the sake of doing the right thing.

Evangelicals are Christian.

How do Mormons stack up?

1. Jesus is a god. He has not always been a god. Neither He or the Father is eternal, but descended from other Gods. The identity of the real "God" is not addressed or cared to be addressed. Jesus Christ is a god, but not eternal.
2. Lessons may make mention of Christ, but he is reduced to a background role. The New Testament is largely ignored. Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham people are given much more stage time. Christ is one character of a vast cast of characters who each play a critical role for salvation. Prophets, keys, rituals are not just symbols of Christ, rather ends in themselves. Jesus Christ is not central, despite what the Church claims.
3. The atonement is not everything. While a Mormon may (in the most unusual circumstance) trust Christ, they must add a tremendous bevy of ancillary requirements to the atonement. A Mormon must not sin, not backslide in any way, as well as be a member of a church, be baptized, attend church, pay a tenth of their goods, sustain the prophet, and the greatest obscenity to the Atonement, play Gods in the Temple. One must be married, be sealed, be endowed, accept the semi-divinity of the current prophet, etc etc etc. Each of these arbitrary requirements mock the power of the atonement, but it certainly removes it from its central position required to be Christian. The Atonement is not central, despite what the Church claims.

Mormonism, according to my arbitrary definition, are not Christian.

This being said, if Mormons worship a potato as Jesus Christ and similarly twist the Atonement, they COULD be said to be Christians. But to do so would do violence to the term. There comes a point when a line is crossed, even if the line is ill defined. I accept there are shades of grey within Christianity, but Mormonism is not even on the frontiers of the Body.

A Mormon is as Christian as a worshiper of a Mr. Potato Head Christ is a Christian.

By your arbitrary definition, there are other mainstream Christian churches that would also not make the cut. Particularly problematic is number 3, which is the works versus grace issue. There are mainstream Christian churches that, like Mormonism, stress works as much as grace. Like Mormonism, they justify this by saying that grace comes first, but works are evidence of faith.

I would also dispute your assertion that Jesus is not central in LDS lessons and talks. I don't believe that talks and lessons ignore the New Testament as you claim. When I was LDS, I was very Christ-centered, and felt that the entire religion was, as well. I found James Talmage's Jesus The Christ to be very moving and good evidence of the Christ-centered basis of Mormonism.

Mormonism is simply multi level marketing christianity.

beastie wrote:By your arbitrary definition, there are other mainstream Christian churches that would also not make the cut. Particularly problematic is number 3, which is the works versus grace issue. There are mainstream Christian churches that, like Mormonism, stress works as much as grace. Like Mormonism, they justify this by saying that grace comes first, but works are evidence of faith.

I would also dispute your assertion that Jesus is not central in LDS lessons and talks. I don't believe that talks and lessons ignore the New Testament as you claim. When I was LDS, I was very Christ-centered, and felt that the entire religion was, as well. I found James Talmage's Jesus The Christ to be very moving and good evidence of the Christ-centered basis of Mormonism.

One cannot deny the Atonement by making it conditional without denying the centrality of Christ. Works are more important than the Atonement for the LDS. Or, the Atonement is roughly equivalent to baptism as a requirement for salvation. (for Christians, baptism is an outward reflection of an internal commitment, not needed for salvation) Works are similar. They are an outward reflection of an inward commitment, they do not save.

I have seen that Christ is an important player in the Mormon universe, but he is not central. He is co-eternal to the Endowment, for example. He is almost an obligatory afterthought to the lessons. I cannot quantify this, of course, so your experience could be different.

Mormons want to be known and accepted into the generic "Christian" faiths, which is why they cling to the KJV as the standard Bible they use. What they fail to mention is they use the JST "footnotes" and teach from the JST, so it's of little importance that they claim to use the KJV, which they do because the RLDS hold the rights to the JST.

In answering this question, I think it's best to define a faith by the doctrine it encompasses. One common denominator to all "Christian" faiths is they all believe Joseph Smith was a false prophet of God and reject Mormon doctrine as false. If a Christian wanted to call themselves a Jew, it would paint the same scenario, as Christians accept both old and new testaments, just as Mormons accept the Bible and Mormon doctrine.

To narrow down the definition, it's better to answer what a "Mormon" is rather than what a "Christian" is. What is a "Mormon" anyway? By definition, it's someone who places faith in Mormon doctrine. Add to that belief in Joseph Smith's magic rocks, Masonic rituals, polygamy/polyandry, racism, and the claim made by Joseph Smith's first vision (depending on which "first" vision you pick from), and Jesus Christ and God a "two distinct and separate personages" which goes against Christian doctrine. To combat this, Mormons will find passages in the KJV to support Joseph Smith's visions and ignore Mormon doctrine. In summation, I agree with you that Mormons are not Christians... they're Mormons.

http://mormonwatch.com/articles/OneTrueChurch.asp

Let's see what the "Saints" had to say about Christianity...

"Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 10:230).

"Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses, 10:127).

"With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:199);

"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 255).

"Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (President Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).

[There is] "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (Joseph Fielding Smith , Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190).

"no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith...every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are" (Brigham Young , Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289).

"rebaptism" after excommunication denies the atonement.

One more thing, Beastie. Where in the hierarchy of important books does Jesus the Christ rank in relation to Miracle of Forgiveness and Marvelous Work and a Wonder? I think it is third.

karl61 wrote:"rebaptism" after excommunication denies the atonement.

Absolutely brilliant. If the Church controls the Atonement, who is the savior??

Here's a simple equation:

Christ + Nothing = True Christianity

Add something to the "nothing" part and you now have an organized religeon.

[There is] "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (Joseph Fielding Smith , Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190).

That about sums it up.