MAD has gone full blown Orwellian - deleting history

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_beastie
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MAD has gone full blown Orwellian - deleting history

Post by _beastie »

MAD has really gone mad. We’ve all known for a long time that the moderators at MAD engage in such highly biased moderating that it’s difficult to have a genuine debate there, but now they’ve gone full-blown Orwellian in that they apparently have deleted past threads that displeased them. I just tried to find my two threads about John Sorenson’s abuse of his metallurgy footnotes, and they are nowhere to be found on the site. I’ve searched every way I can think of, and have perused the archives to find it – nothing. I know it occurred in May of 2005, and they simply are not there. Other threads refer to these threads, but the actual threads have disappeared.

Fortunately I kept the details on my website, but of course can’t provide a link to prove that Sorenson really did dismiss the episode by calling it a “tempest in a teapot”. If the entire scholarly community is as incompetent with their use of footnotes as Sorenson has been, and as unconcerned over the misuse of footnotes as Sorenson was, then the academia is a joke.

Here’s the pertinent section from my website:

I tracked down two of his other references on my own, with equally problematic results. The following quote is from Ancient American Setting, page 284:

“The possibility that smelted iron either has been or may yet be found is enhanced by a find at Teotihuacan. A pottery vessel dating to about AD 300, and apparently used for smelting, contained a “metallic-looking” mass. Analyzed chemically, it proved to contain copper and iron. Linee, the same Swedish archaeologist who made that find, accepted a piece of iron found in a tomb at Mitla, Oaxaca, as probably refined.”

The footnotes Dr. Sorenson attaches to this information are:

“Sigvald Linne, Mexican Highland Cultures, Ethnographical Museum of Sweden, Publication 7, ns (Stockholm, 1942), p. 132

Sigvald Linne, Zapotecan Antiquities, Ehthnographical Museum of Sweden, Publication 4, ns (Stockholm, 1938), p. 75”

I obtained Linne’s Mexican Highland Cultures text. This particular section was a dig of the Tlamimilolpa House Ruin in Teotihuacan. At the beginning of the section, Linne spends some time describing the actual site and how they proceeded. Then he lists the objects excavated therein. 13 graves were discovered below the floors of different rooms, and the object in question was discovered in Burial site 1, the earliest of said graves. He first lists approximately sixteen different types of pottery vessels, bowls, dishes, jars, lids, miniature vessels. He then lists beads and figurine fragments. Next he lists obsidian knives and tools. Then he moves into listing the mineral type objects. This is the area of the list wherein this item occurs. From page 132:

“1 object of pyrite, rounded and highly polished, fig. 236. Analysis reveals a high percentage of iron and sulphur: specific gravity 4.88

1 piece of pyrite, of rectangular shape and with one side slightly convex and polished; 1.3 x 0.9x 0.1 cm. Was no doubt originally set in the eye of a mask of the typeshown in pls. 3-5.

Metallic-resembling substance, small, irregular shaped pieces. Analysis has shown them to contain copper and iron, but no zinc, tin, or antimony.

2 bone implements, short and tapering, though not sharp-pointed. Have possibly been used for flaking off knives from obsidian blocks. Figs. 248, 254.

1 thin, flat bone object with a blunt point and a hole pierced for a suspension cord or the like, fig. 249”

He then proceeds to list teeth and shells.

After listing all the objects, he writes some notes and draws some conclusions. Under the heading “Tools and ornaments of obsidian, stone, and mica”, he states:

“Of peculiar character are a rounded object, fig. 236, and fragments of a circular plate, both from Burial 1. The latter, which has the appearance of rusty iron, may have been a mirror. Analysis has shown both of them to contain a large proportion of sulphur and iron, and they are undoubtedly iron pyrite. There can be no doubt that certain pre-Spanish objects described as being of iron are nothing but pyrite. Weathering has made them look rusty. The diameter of the flat disc is 6 cm, which roughly corresponds to the average size of the Mexican pyrite mirrors included in Nordenskiold’s study of convex and concave mirrors in America. Unfortunately the surface is so badly weathered that it is impossible to determine the way in which it is ground. Nordenskiold has, however, found that the majority of pre-Spanish mirrors – all of them from Mexico, Ecuador, and the Peruvian coast – are convex and consist of pyrite. In Musee de l’Homme, Paris, there is one which forms part of Charnay’s collection and is stated to have come from Teotihuacan. Nordenskiold further adduces a Mexican picture-writing in which among other things is seen a man using a mirror. The picture-writing in question is said to originate from Cholula. Mirrors were naturally in great demand as an article of trade and even formed part of the barter goods with which the great raft that Bartolome Ruiz in 1526 encountered off the coast of Ecuador was loaded.”



Under the pottery section, this is listed:

“6 bowls with flat bottom, curving sides and exceedingly rudimentary feet, fig. 203. They are black, polished, and with a surface of almost metallic luster. One of them is ornamented with incised curved lines, fig. 217”

As should be obvious, nothing in this passage supports Dr. Sorenson’s reference to a vessel used for smelting, with an analyzed residue at the bottom.

I attempted to reach Dr. Sorenson about this problem, and he answered me via Dan Peterson on the FAIR site. Due to FAIR’s copyright restrictions, I cannot copy his response, but will paraphrase it. Interested readers should be able to find the thread in the archives through the search function, under “Sorenson’s footnote”. Dr. Sorenson admitted that the referenced footnote was incorrect, and that he obtained the information through a private correspondence that he no longer has. He dismissed the concern over such a misuse of a source by saying it was a “tempest in a teapot”, and there were plenty of other references to support his assertions.

I was not able to personally obtain the second reference, but a friend accessed it at her library and kindly copied the pertinent section for me.
“Page 53 (first reference):
"In a grave-chamber situated in the present village were among other things found 20 bells and a number of tweezers of copper, part of a small, circular iron plate, a necklace consisting of small, perforated shells, and a rasping bone. The iron plate is no doubt to be counted among the most remarkable objects that have at any time been discovered in Mexico seeing there is nothing to indicate that it is of post-Columbian origin (cf. p. 75). Hitherto it has always been held as an axiom that iron was unknown to the Indians of ancient America. A clay vessel found in this grave was of Mixtecan type. In a neighbouring grave-chamber were, among other things, found a "metate" (grinding stone) with its "mano" (muller), and a large number of clay vessels referable to Period V."
Page 75-76:
"At the researches that were carried out in the excavation season 1934 - 35 at Mitla there was, as already mentioned, discovered a grave (No. 5) in which, among other things, was found a small iron plate.[28] The grave in question no doubt dates from the time when the Mixtecs were in possession. The chemist, connected with the Instituto de Geología, Universidad Nacional de Mexico, that analysed this object reports on it as follows:
Insolube .......................................... poquisimo
Fierro ............................................... bastante
Aluminio ......................................... poco
Azufre ............................................. bastante
Carbón ............................................ muy poco
"Unfortunately the above analysis cannot, however, be considered satisfactory. To the metallurgist, a quantitative analysis would have revealed the metod by which the iron was produced. The statement that the iron contained a considerable percentage of sulphur is not by itself of any very great value as it merely indicates that the metal was extracted by a primitive method."
_______
[28] Caso, Alfonso y Rubin de la Borbolla, D.F. (1936) Exploraciones en Mitla 1934-1935 (Instituto Panamericano de Geografia e Historia, publicación no. 21, Mexico 1936).”
This source seems to actually give support to his assertion, except for one minor problem. Mitla was occupied by the Mixtecs in the wrong time period to fit the Book of Mormon.
“The word Mitla comes from the Náhuatl word Mictlan, meaning place of the dead or underworld.In the Zapotec language this place is called Lyobaa, meaning place of rest or burial place.
The Mitla archaeological site is located within the town of Mitla, officially San Pablo Villa de Mitla, at the northern end of town. The site is located in the Tlacolula Valley which is one of the three valleys that intersect at the archaeological site of Monte Albán to the west. Mitla is 48km east of Oaxaca, at an elevation of 4855' (1480 meters). From Oaxaca city, travel east of Hwy 190 and follow the signs to Mitla.
Mitla was inhabited in the Classic Period (100-650 AD), and possibly as early as 900 BC. It appears to have been at its peak occupation in the Post Classic Period (750-1521 AD). It was inhabited by the Zapotec people although it was under the control of the Mixtecs from about 1000 AD to 1200 AD and then fell to the Aztecs in 1494.”
Mitla

This is already well after the accepted time period for the introduction of metallurgy in Mesoamerica.


http://mormonmesoamerica.com/metallurgy.htm

Perhaps others can locate the thread in question on MAD’s archives. I certainly cannot, and unless I’m shown to be mistaken and just missed them, can only conclude that MAD has gone full-blown Orwellian and is rewriting history by deleting history.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Gadianton
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Re: MAD has gone full blown Orwellian - deleting history

Post by _Gadianton »

fyi, I believe MAD's archive rolls after 2 years.

Very smart on their part.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_Yoda

Re: MAD has gone full blown Orwellian - deleting history

Post by _Yoda »

Interesting. Did you notice any other threads missing? I'm wondering what their motive is. It seems like they would have had to do some digging to delete it.

I wouldn't put it past them to delete it....but I'm wondering if it was the victim of a systems glitch. Wasn't that thread created when the board was still FAIR?

In all fairness. I do remember DanG mentioning that he was having trouble transferring threads from one format to the other. He also mentioned that he was afraid some threads had been lost.
_Ray A

Re: MAD has gone full blown Orwellian - deleting history

Post by _Ray A »

Gadianton wrote:fyi, I believe MAD's archive rolls after 2 years.

Very smart on their part.


The Library shouldn't roll.


Although I can't be certain, I recall two of beastie's Book of Mormon threads being in this section (The Book of Mormon). I'm only seeing one now. In any case this section goes back to 2004.

Maybe beastie can find something there.
_beastie
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Re: MAD has gone full blown Orwellian - deleting history

Post by _beastie »

There are other threads in the archives from the exact same week - even the same day. In one of the archived threads, I mentioned that I had just created the thread and asked for Brant's feedback:

Brant and CI,

I'll return to your comments here later, but right now would like you to read and comment on my Sorenson/Linne post.


http://www.mormonapologetics.org/topic/ ... ge__st__60

I'm sorry, I just find it too convenient by half for these particular threads to disappear - threads that demonstrated one of their most cherished apologists is incompetent in use his of sources - when threads that occured at the exact same time are intact.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_beastie
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Re: MAD has gone full blown Orwellian - deleting history

Post by _beastie »

I checked the library - they're not there while other threads from the exact same time period are.

HA! Luckily for me I saved some of the text of the victim of Orwell when I was working on my website.

Daniel Peterson
Posted: May 25 2005, 04:31 PM

Professor Sorenson sent me a note today:

Matt has shown me the dispatch from you on this topic. I have rechecked
and the following seem to be accurate statements:

1. I said nowhere that smelting was documented but only that there is
evidence that suggests the possibility that smelting was known in
Mesoamerica.

2. In regard to the "pottery vessel" that I said had contained a
mixture of two melted substances, iron and copper, in it, I failed to
provide documentation for the "pot" and cannot now recover it. I suspect it
was from a personal communication from Robert Chadwick, an archaeologist
who worked at Teotihuacan in the 1960s and who also believed that Old World
metalworkers reached Mesoamerica (he is now dead so I cannot check). In any
case the "pieces" documented by S. Linne, as per my documentation in An
Ancient American Setting (Linne's report is quoted in my FARMS metals
bibliography) are a mixture of copper and iron, which mixing can probably be
explained only by some kind of metallurgical processing which might or might
not deserve to be termed "smelting." I never said that it was "smelting,"
only that it opens the possibility of such.

Seems to me to be a tempest in a (ceramic) pot.


http://www.fairboards.org/index.php?sho ... 8349&st=45
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_karl61
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Re: MAD has gone full blown Orwellian - deleting history

Post by _karl61 »

try searching for an exact sentence at Google.
I want to fly!
_EAllusion
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Re: MAD has gone full blown Orwellian - deleting history

Post by _EAllusion »

Yeah, I searched for some of my threads, and most are gone. But there are some nonbumped threads from the same timeperiod and place the others are gone, which I thought was odd. I wasn't sure what happened there. Wayback wasn't any help.
_beastie
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Re: MAD has gone full blown Orwellian - deleting history

Post by _beastie »

try searching for an exact sentence at Google.


When I do that, a hit for the MAD thread shows up, but when you click the link, it says the thread cannot be found.

Sorenson's evidence for early smelting - Mormon Apologetics ...#42 Daniel Peterson Icon. "B-List Academic". Group: Pundit; Posts: 9446; Joined: 01-April 04 ..... Professor Sorenson sent me a note today: ...

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/topic/ ... ge__st__40
Sorenson's evidence for early smelting - Mormon Apologetics ...Daniel Peterson, on May 27 2005, 03:02 PM, said: ..... Daniel Peterson said: beastie said: .... Professor Sorenson sent me a note today: ...


[#10343] We could not determine which topic you were attempting to view.


They're gone. It takes a lot of nerve to delete threads that contained very important information about Book of Mormon apologia.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Gadianton
_Emeritus
Posts: 9947
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2007 5:12 am

Re: MAD has gone full blown Orwellian - deleting history

Post by _Gadianton »

Seriously, I think *everything* rolls after two years.

I forgot that they had an "archivist" project, I remember them asking for more contributors.

So, what it looks like they've done is become is Orwellian in two steps rather than one as if this makes them less sneaky. Let everything be deleted by default as if there are problems with storage etc., and then save just the threads -- and probably portions of some threads -- that they believe to be favorable to their position.

edited to add: I just returned from taking a quick look at "The Library", a shout out to Ray for bringing this to our attention. Glancing at the first page says it all, every thread preserved is started by David Bokovoy, DCP or another apologists. Someone ought to do some investigation some time, compare live threads with archived threads and see if the archived versions miss any interesting parts.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
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