Which poster here is O-Brother on MADB?

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_beastie
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Re: Which poster here is O-Brother on MADB?

Post by _beastie »

From your link:


For years the best evidence suggested that metallurgy was unknown in the Americas until about 900 A.D. Recent studies have altered this view. “Current information,” writes one non-LDS scholar, “clearly indicates that by 1000 B.C. the most advanced metallurgy was being practiced in the Cauca Valley of Colombia.”1 Peruvians began metallurgy as early as 2000 B.C. and since it is generally accepted that Peru and Mesoamerica were in contact by trading, it seems reasonable that this knowledge was passed on to Mesoamerican peoples, especially since at least a dozen pieces of metal have been found in Mesoamerica dating to before 900 AD. 2
The problem with ancient metal artifacts is that metal (left untreated or exposed to the elements) corrodes and deteriorates—especially in the humid and wet jungles of Mesoamerica. Language studies, however, help confirm that metallurgy was known anciently in the Americas. Non-Mormon scholars who have reconstructed parts of several ancient Mesoamerican languages were puzzled to find a word for “metal” existed as early as 1000 B.C. while the early language of the Olmecs had a word for metal as early as 1500 B.C.3


There is no evidence of metallurgy prior to 900 AD in Mesoamerica. Peru doesn’t change that fact. There are plenty of metal artifacts that have survived the environment – the problem is that they all post-date 900 AD, with the exception of metal that is worked by hand without metallurgy. And that, by the way, is what the Olmec word for “metal” was signifying – you know, like the stuff they used to make iron-ore mirrors. They’ve survived the environment, too, and no metallurgy was involved.


As mentioned, one should not reject the possibility of "loan-shifting," — candidate species for "horse" under this interpretation include the tapir, deer [13] or llama.[14]


A llama in Mesoamerica? The Israelites came from a region that had deer. Why would they, or Joseph Smith who also knew deer and horse, use “horse” for “deer”? That needs to be discarded immediately. So we’re left with tapir, which is also the candidate for the donkey. No animal is suggested for cattle: I suppose the author was embarrassed to use tapir three times in a row. The sheep is ignored. So, basically, it’s “tapir” for all the large land animals mentioned in the Book of Mormon. That makes zero sense under any translation model.

If you want to discuss these issues seriously, please take the time to read my website, where I go into detail on these issues. I created the site precisely so I don’t have to reinvent the wheel over and over. (cough, chariot, cough)

http://mormonmesoamerica.com/metallurgy.htm

http://mormonmesoamerica.com/Book of Mormon%20Horse.htm
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Gadianton
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Re: Which poster here is O-Brother on MADB?

Post by _Gadianton »

ttribe wrote:
Gadianton wrote:I wager that ttribe is only *really* open to such possibilities, with accompanying argument from ignorance, when what's on the table is an unlikely Mormon-specific belief.

Do you actually have something to contribute, or are you just mostly interested in snarky drive-by cheap shots intended to heap scorn on someone you know little or nothing about?


ttribe, are you open, I mean, really open, to reincarnation? How about the prophecies of Nostradamus?

I don't just mean you respect others who believe in reincarnation, but you really are open to there being something to it because as you say, science doesn't know everything...
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_Nimrod
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Re: Which poster here is O-Brother on MADB?

Post by _Nimrod »

ttribe wrote:
Scottie wrote:If your defense is a tight vs loose translation then how do you explain words like curelom and cumom. These are specific names for animals of which Joseph Smith had no reference for.

This actually seems to work in my favor. There was no frame of reference, so he just got the "words".

Scottie wrote:Not only that, but the "translation" of the Book of Mormon was not done in the same way a human might translate from one language to another, right? Supposedly God showed Joseph Smith the word in the seer stone. Are you proposing there were multiple ways that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon, and the words in the seer stone are simply one way it was done? That perhaps there was another method where God "projected" a scene into Joseph Smith mind and let him describe it to the best of his ability?

Actually, the "how" is quite irrelevant. It could just as easily be that God gave Joseph the word "steel" or "horse" because that was the closest approximation. It doesn't require Joseph to interpret anything.

It was God's 'loose' translation and inability to get the right word?
--*--
_Sethbag
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Re: Which poster here is O-Brother on MADB?

Post by _Sethbag »

ttribe wrote:
Tchild wrote:Steel and horses are a good start.

These, and most of the alleged anachronisms for that matter, largely depend on one's assumption of the "tightness" of the translation. Conversion of concepts across languages is not always precise (as anyone who's learned a foreign language can attest). Is there no room in your reading of the book for the notion that these "words" were simply the best available descriptors?


No. You and I could have done better. But Joseph didn't ask you and me. He asked God, the all-powerful, all-knowing Creator of the Universe. And steel and horses were the best God could do? Really?

When Joseph was reading the words of the Book of Mormon off the ethereal parchment that appeared in his hat, in the peepstone or whatever, are you really telling me that God, or Jesus Christ, or whatever angelic being they delegated this job to, couldn't do better at translating this stuff than two schmoes from Arizona, acting like armchair gods on the Internet?

Anyhow, you make my case for me. You are obviously a smart and clever man, and your mind is very good at problem-solving. In this case the problems are anachronisms in the Book of Mormon. You don't wish to accept that the Book of Mormon isn't actually authentic, so you "solve" the problems by resorting to word redefinition and other hand-waving exercises about "tight" vs. "loose" translation.

There's an obvious explanation for the steel bow in 1 Nephi, and you and I both know what it is. Joseph (or Sidney, or whoever) read "bow of steel" in 2nd Samuel and decided it would be cool if Nephi had one too. That's because whoever it was didn't realize that the KJV translator's use of "steel" in the early 1600s for whatever Hebrew word appeared in the original text was not really an apt translation anymore, and it really meant something like bronze or whatever. So the Book of Mormon author goes on about Nephi's bow, which was made of fine steel. It's pretty plain what is meant here, and that this is simply anachronistic. You are forced to problem-solve to get around this, and you do so, and satisfy yourself with the answers.

This has nothing to do with your IQ vs. my IQ, whatever they happen to be. This has everything to do with your desire to keep believing in the Book of Mormon being stronger than your desire to find out what is really true, and your willingness to engage in creative problem-solving in order to paper over the obvious evidentiary problems with the belief system.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_Scottie
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Re: Which poster here is O-Brother on MADB?

Post by _Scottie »

ttribe wrote:This actually seems to work in my favor. There was no frame of reference, so he just got the "words".

I'm confused by this statement.

You seem to be saying that horse really meant some other animal in Mesoamerica, possibly Llama or Tapir. While we don't know all the translation methods used, it is apparent that God had the ability to give Joseph words for animals which Joseph has never seen. See Cumom and Curelom. So why didn't God give Joseph Smith the word "tapir" or "llama"? Why would God give Joseph Smith the word "horse" for something that wasn't a horse? Same goes for ox, or sheep.

.

.
If there's one thing I've learned from this board, it's that consensual sex with multiple partners is okay unless God commands it. - Abman

I find this place to be hostile toward all brands of stupidity. That's why I like it. - Some Schmo
_Redefined
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Re: Which poster here is O-Brother on MADB?

Post by _Redefined »

I was in a discussion with o-brother about how Jesus represents love. (I was the one arguing for this symbolism). What I can't understand is that no one was willing to chime in on that discussion to support this, if indeed o-brother did have some radical views, LDS members' silence over at MADB for that thread supported him in this view. Certainly LDS members weren't rushing in to back me up on this commonly-held symbolism. It only made me feel that LDS members don't know themselves what position they are on in the matter. O-brother suggested that maybe it was because people had him on their ignore list. . . maybe so, but that just doesn't strike me as true.

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/topic/ ... oppose-us/

It goes to show that Mormon beliefs run a wide gambit. And one cannot say in their own little bubble that "so and so" must have had "bad-apple" parents, or "so and so" must be one too many a screw loose. However much anyone wants to tell themselves that there is "one" narrow path in their TRUE religion, who is to say that they themselves are not the ones that aren't being true to their religion. It's because NOBODY has the answers!

I like O-brother believe it or not! At least he is consistent to himself (which may not be the same as consistent with Mormonism). . . go all or go home!

Bottom-line. Get used to it! O-brother probably can call himself a TBM, there are probably many other TBM's out there don't fit into your bubble of belief.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Mar 12, 2010 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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_lostindc
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Re: Which poster here is O-Brother on MADB?

Post by _lostindc »

Redefined wrote:I was in a discussion with o-brother about how Jesus represents love. (I was the one arguing for this symbolism). What I can't understand is that no one was willing to chime in on that discussion to support this, if indeed o-brother did have some radical views, LDS members' silence over at MADB for that thread supported him in this view. Certainly LDS members weren't rushing in to back me up on this commonly-held symbolism. It only made me feel that LDS members don't know themselves what position they are on in the matter. O-brother suggested that maybe it was because people had him on their ignore list. . . maybe so, but that just doesn't strike me as true.

Sorry I don't have a link Shades, I will try to find it and add it on to this post.

It goes to show that Mormon beliefs run a wide gambit. And one cannot say in their own little bubble that "so and so" must have had "bad-apple" parents, or "so and so" must be one too many a screw loose. However much anyone wants to tell themselves that there is "one" narrow path in their TRUE religion, who is to say that they themselves are not the ones that aren't being true to their religion. It's because NOBODY has the answers!

I like O-brother believe it or not! At least he is consistent to himself (which may not be the same as consistent with Mormonism). . . go all or go home!

Bottom-line. Get used to it! O-brother probably can call himself a TBM, there are probably many other TBM's out there don't fit into your bubble of belief.



Not sure what any of this means, can someone get me a peepstone and a top hat?
2019 = #100,000missionariesstrong
_ttribe

Re: Which poster here is O-Brother on MADB?

Post by _ttribe »

John Larsen wrote:Don't pretend that by accepting a dogma you are somehow more open to possibilities. I am willing to believe anything there is evidence for. I am unwilling to believe nothing there is no evidence for.

Define "evidence".
_ttribe

Re: Which poster here is O-Brother on MADB?

Post by _ttribe »

beastie wrote:If you want to discuss these issues seriously, please take the time to read my website, where I go into detail on these issues. I created the site precisely so I don’t have to reinvent the wheel over and over. (cough, chariot, cough)

http://mormonmesoamerica.com/metallurgy.htm

http://mormonmesoamerica.com/Book of Mormon%20Horse.htm

Then perhaps you should have started with that rather than trying to pin me down on minutiae.
_ttribe

Re: Which poster here is O-Brother on MADB?

Post by _ttribe »

John Larsen wrote:
ttribe wrote:Hasn't this path been tread a few thousand time? How about you tell me why the extant isn't worthy of even your derision, let alone your acknowledgment: http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon ... ms:Animals

Honestly, does a man of you intelligence find this compelling? I only find it to be embarrassing. There is better stuff on Coast to Coast AM.

Compelling? I don't know. Worth considering? Yes.
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