Truth Dancer and The Spirit

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_mms
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Truth Dancer and The Spirit

Post by _mms »

When I was a TBM, I would likely have described my feeling "the Spirit" as a very emotional feeling that brought tears to my eyes and caused chill bumps on my arms and/or an epiphany. The third definition of epiphany at dictionary.com describes what I am referencing:

a sudden, intuitive perception of or insight into the reality or essential meaning of something, usually initiated by some simple, homely, or commonplace occurrence or experience.


Over the last few years, on occasion, I have had experienced the sudden combination of emotion and epiphany while reading posts on this board--most notably some of Truth Dancer's posts (and I mean posts that make points directly contrary to those promoted by the LDS Church). These experiences have been entirely consistent with my prior experiences and certainly indistinguishable to my brain.

Any thoughts are welcome, but I am certainly interested in how the TBM on this board would explain this. Is it that I never truly felt the Spirit before? Am I being somehow deceived now? Or is it possible that these feelings and epiphanies have more to do with what I have prepared myself to relate to--meaning that epiphanies result from what we have prepared ourselves to understand and emotions result from that to which we can relate in some significant way?

Obviously, the Church's position is that the feeling of the Spirit is so simple to distinguish from other feelings that one can be expected to commit to giving the Church ten percent of his income, stopping drinking coffee and alcohol, and leaving the church of his fathers (often giving up family and other relationships) after only two meetings swith the missionaries and reading a few pages in the Book of Mormon and praying about it.

If it is so simple, why do so many of us struggle to know when it is teaching us something as opposed to when we are being deceived?

///
_Rambo
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Re: Truth Dancer and The Spirit

Post by _Rambo »

Good post mms! I think I had a epiphany reading it :)
_truth dancer
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Re: Truth Dancer and The Spirit

Post by _truth dancer »

Hey M...

:-)

My spiritual journey brought me to a place where I realized I HAD to embrace my own personal truth, In other words, what "truth" came to me and was congruent with my personal life experience and my experience with the divine.

I do not suggest my "truth" is actually Truth and I am completely open to any religion being the one and only true one. It is just that I have not found a religion that I can integrate (in a healthy way), with my own "reality" and sense of the divine.

There are times when I ponder the night sky and get swept away, having an experience that feels deeper and more expansive and real than anything of this world. There are times I bring a butterfly or the ocean into my heart and am filled with a wonder and awe that I can't describe. And, there are times when a feel like I am a recipient of an awareness that expands my heart and spirit. (I know we all have these moments). I do not know from where these experiences come, only that for ME, they feel holy.

I recognize this emotion/feeling/spirit as something that feels peaceful, harmonious, loving, beautiful. It feels true and lovely and enriching... it feels like enlightenment.

So, when I come across a teaching or belief or doctrine that is in opposition to this sense of truth, it just doesn't fit into my heart and soul. It "feels" hurtful, cruel, damaging, maladaptive, or unholy.

Again, I'm NOT saying I have access to truth or anything like this, only that this is my personal experience and try as I did, the LDS church didn't feel holy TO ME. Of course there are some teachings that are lovely as there are in every religion and cult, but the truth claims of the church along withsome teachings just conflict with my sense of holiness.

I'm probably not explaining this well.... smile.

~td~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_Inconceivable
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Re: Truth Dancer and The Spirit

Post by _Inconceivable »

Thanks TD (and mms),

What a simple paradigm.

Like many TBM's I anticipated receiving many explanations after my death that would help me to understand why a kind and loving God (and his reprepresentatives) could appear to engage in such foul and reprehensible teaching and behavior.

Wherever the path leads to (that TD describes), there is light and peace for the here and now and illumination and hope just up ahead. I like the consistancy.

inc.

(rewrite)
Last edited by Guest on Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_mms
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Re: Truth Dancer and The Spirit

Post by _mms »

No TBMs willing to weigh in on this one, eh? I know it presents a bit of a challenge because it has for me, but certainly somebody has something to say???
_truth dancer
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Re: Truth Dancer and The Spirit

Post by _truth dancer »

Hi MMS,

I'll give you a little apologetic perspective. :-)

Those in other religions who claim to have a spiritual testimony of their faith either...

Are being deceived, Satan can imitate the spirit
Are given the amount of knowledge they can handle
Don't understand what the spirit is
Ask the wrong questions
Are given a portion of truth so they won't be held accountable for all of it
Are too hard hearted so don't feel the "real" spirit
Are confused
Have the light of Christ as given to all people, but do not have the gift of the HG

The problem is, all of these can be used against the LDS church as well. Ya know?

And, of course, it could very well be that I am in the grips of the adversary. ;-) (Yes, I have heard this...smile).

~td~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_mfbukowski
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Re: Truth Dancer and The Spirit

Post by _mfbukowski »

mms wrote:No TBMs willing to weigh in on this one, eh? I know it presents a bit of a challenge because it has for me, but certainly somebody has something to say???

If you are looking for a TBM, I am guilty as charged.

This discussion parallels the one I think on "The Spirit and Feelings" here on this forum in which I have posted several times with no response- so between these two threads perhaps we can get a good discussion going, since the subject I think is a crucial one since I see no problem with what you have said so far, and yet obviously this is a major stumbling block for critics.

The only problem is that I am super busy this week.

But for a short answer, let me say that if one truly believes in PERSONAL revelation, as I do, the only possible conclusion is that those spiritual answers would be PERSONAL, ie: tailored for the individual to move that INDIVIDUAL forward on the path to finding God. This means that if that individual needs to be Buddhist to find God, that individual could receive a "true" revelation from God to become Buddhist or whatever else works for that person.

What critics seem to not understand is that this is actually part of LDS doctrine. We believe that there is truth in all "churches" (paths to God) but that ours is the "best" path in that it contains more "truth" than any other path. The entire doctrine of redemption of the dead presupposes that a seeking individual, having more information available on the other side, will see the wisdom of the "true" path and follow it, and eventually "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess... etc."

I have found that critics often have a very very narrow, fundamentalistic, and stilted, strict, and to me unrealistic view of LDS doctrine, which perhaps arises primarily from their upbringing which to me does not represent at all the richness of what is possible in Mormonism. I find many of the arguments on this board laughable for this reason. Mormonism can be very dynamic - the whole notion of continuing revelation is revolutionary in a Christian construct, but all the critics see are historic changes in doctrine for example, with a view that there is only ONE way to see all this.

But this life is about learning which paths work and which don't, and I don't see how you can find the truth without taking a few twists and turns. I myself have been Catholic atheist and Buddhist and am now LDS - and have been for 30 years- and this is where I am staying because I have tried those other paths and found this to be the "best" which encompasses all the other paths I have taken. And trust me, I know enough about the way the church works to know all the negatives too. ALL the negatives.

Most who respond will probably follow the line "but that's not what Mormons believe" and we will continue the discussion battling their hidebound caricatures of the gospel- that's what my crystal ball says-- but that is also why you haven't had any TBM's willing to take on this unending same discussion one more time.

To reduce my point to it's most basic and obvious example, if you take a drunk on skid row who wants to change his life, would God give him a "genuine" revelation to join the Salvation Army if they were the only ones who paid attention to him and brought him to Christ?

Of course he would!

Would any TBM argue with that point?

The other examples are just more subtle variations on the same theme.

And to Truth Dancer's latest post-

truth dancer wrote:And, of course, it could very well be that I am in the grips of the adversary. ;-) (Yes, I have heard this...smile).

Anybody who says that to you just doesn't understand the gospel.

I don't doubt for a second that people say those things, but they just don't get it. THAT is not doctrine.

Now I suppose the rest of the thread will be devoted to what is and is not doctrine. Oh well. If that's the way it goes, I will tell you in advance it's not worth my time to participate.
_zeezrom
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Re: Truth Dancer and The Spirit

Post by _zeezrom »

mfbukowski wrote:But this life is about learning which paths work and which don't, and I don't see how you can find the truth without taking a few twists and turns. I myself have been Catholic atheist and Buddhist and am now LDS - and have been for 30 years- and this is where I am staying because I have tried those other paths and found this to be the "best" which encompasses all the other paths I have taken. And trust me, I know enough about the way the church works to know all the negatives too. ALL the negatives.

Your idea of a path that works is subjective. Lucy Walker, Helen Kimball seemed to find a path that worked. Does that mean there are multiple paths or that you have to be really good at finding the most correct one or what?

To reduce my point to it's most basic and obvious example, if you take a drunk on skid row who wants to change his life, would God give him a "genuine" revelation to join the Salvation Army if they were the only ones who paid attention to him and brought him to Christ?

Of course he would!

Would any TBM argue with that point?
Maybe. What if that drunk used to be a member of the LDS church, for example?
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

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_Analytics
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Re: Truth Dancer and The Spirit

Post by _Analytics »

mfbukowski wrote:
mms wrote:But for a short answer, let me say that if one truly believes in PERSONAL revelation, as I do, the only possible conclusion is that those spiritual answers would be PERSONAL, ie: tailored for the individual to move that INDIVIDUAL forward on the path to finding God. This means that if that individual needs to be Buddhist to find God, that individual could receive a "true" revelation from God to become Buddhist or whatever else works for that person.

What critics seem to not understand is that this is actually part of LDS doctrine. We believe that there is truth in all "churches" (paths to God) but that ours is the "best" path in that it contains more "truth" than any other path.

I find these comments self-contradictory. You first say that the "best" path with the most "truth" is an individual thing, but then say that the Mormon Church is the real best path with the most real truth. Can you really have it both ways?

Or do I misunderstand you? Do you conceed that maybe, for example, Budhism could be the path with the most "real" truth, but that the relatively inferior path of Mormonism happens to work for you because of some peculiar idiosyncrasy of yours?

I think the claim that Mormonism has the most truth irks exMormons in the same way that exMormons claiming they outgrew Mormonism irks Mormons. It comes across as patronizing.
It’s relatively easy to agree that only Homo sapiens can speak about things that don’t really exist, and believe six impossible things before breakfast. You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.

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Re: Truth Dancer and The Spirit

Post by _Nightlion »

mms wrote:Any thoughts are welcome, but I am certainly interested in how the TBM on this board would explain this. Is it that I never truly felt the Spirit before? Am I being somehow deceived now?


Stand in Satan's shoes for a second. God opens up a dispensation and manifests truth and makes it possible for the children of men to accomplish the real gospel of Jesus Christ. For the original saints that were wrought upon and cleansed and given revelations, visions, healing and gifts of prophecy and whose bones were made to quake under the power of God visited upon them the knowledge of what is the Spirit of God was certain and sure. What should Satan do to turn down the heat and cool things off so people can be led astray and wander off into forbidden paths and be lifted up in the pride of their hearts to vaunt themselves worthy without paying the price to make a real covenant? What do you do?

You join in and get as close and to up to speed as you can fake it and find a way and means (usually by blood and horror) to get into the lead so that your minions can validate a counterfeit "spirit".

If the standard of righteousness had ever been rightly understood and established and fixed as firm as the mountain of the Apocalrock Satan would never had gotten his foothold. But it was never competently administered with such wisdom and finesse as the Book of Mormon commanded. So Satan was able to sit and rule in the hearts of the LDS people and flatter their young ones to accept a validation short of the mark. And this took no time at all.

Now the standard of conversion and the spirit is whatever the arrogance of the people will make a consensus of. It is folly and sheer ridicule of all things sacred and holy and eternal which God provided that were able to save and redeem and sanctify.

The Spirit of God must come from God and not rise up in the emotions of your own heart. A tear for Tammuz is an abomination before the Lord. So the imagination of man is the source of the spirit of idolatry.

Ezekiel 8:14-17
14 Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the Lord’s house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz.
15 ¶ Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations than these.
16 And he brought me into the inner court of the Lord’s house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the Lord, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the Lord, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.
17 ¶ Then he said unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to provoke me to anger: and, lo, they put the branch to their nose.


Before you lay hold of the Spirit of God you must seek to enter in at the straight gate and repent in the depths of humility and take upon you the name of Jesus Christ with a broken heart and contrite spirit making a covenant to suffer all things for his names sake and wait, wait for the visitation of power that falls upon the children of God. Then you will know the Spirit. Before that you do not know the Lord.

Will people heed this standard. NO! They will flatter their children to try and manipulate them to be righteous by telling them to be proud that they are already the chosen children of God, born with a divine nature, and cause that they should sing it aloud and rejoice often in the haughtiness of their own conceit and see to it that children become fierce in the defense of the virtue of this flattery. This is trampling upon the Holy One of Israel, it is apostasy.
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