Biases about BYU outside of Utah

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_Enuma Elish
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Re: Biases about BYU outside of Utah

Post by _Enuma Elish »

harmony wrote:Do you have examples for your opinion?


Are you referring to my opinion on our Institute classes vs. BYU religion courses?

What academic rigor, across the board, are you referring to? It seems like academic rigor would have been one of US News' criteria.


Of course, and please note that I'm not claiming that BYU is more academically rigorous than the Ivy League or UC schools. It's not.

I see nothing that would encourage me to send one of my children to Provo in order to take part in the "unique social dynamics". My observations over the years have led to me think that that "unique social dynamic" is often toxic on several levels, including the whole BYU elitist attitude thing of several BYU students I know personally, an attitude they didn't have until they went to Provo.


We'll have to agree to disagree, except of course on the issue of elitism. That's never healthy, no matter where it's manifest. It certainly should have no place whatsoever in a religious institution.

What makes you think the entire student body is incredibly motivated and intelligent, moreso than any other student body? (You're the one making sweeping generalizations now


Again, I'm not saying that they are any more so than Ivy League or UC schools. They may or may not be. But again, Harmony, this point ties into the recent US News and World Report I cited concerning BYU's "popularity" in terms of student retention vs. applicants.

I've been on that campus, EE. Several times. It's no more spiritual than any other campus. Spirituality is a personal individual thing; buildings and cement aren't spiritual.


Well, again, we'll have to agree to disagree. I can't begin to tell you how many college campuses I've been on from Oxford, to Yale, to UCLA, to West Point and there is a very unique spiritual feeling on BYU's campus. I love it. It's one of my favorite places in the world.

And I certainly won't denigrate the whole mating ritual. We agree on that.


Unfortunately, it really is difficult in our culture for single adult women above the age of 30. It's the tragic nature of the beast. Hence, it's not the only reason to attend BYU, but it is a factor.
"We know when we understand: Almighty god is a living man"--Bob Marley
_harmony
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Re: Biases about BYU outside of Utah

Post by _harmony »

Enuma Elish wrote:
And I certainly won't denigrate the whole mating ritual. We agree on that.


Unfortunately, it really is difficult in our culture for single adult women above the age of 30. It's the tragic nature of the beast. Hence, it's not the only reason to attend BYU, but it is a factor.


Over 30? Surely single women over 30 don't flock to BYU to find a mate. Maybe over 20?
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_moksha
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Re: Biases about BYU outside of Utah

Post by _moksha »

In the corporate world does this bias against BYU exist? Are businesses really worrying that when they hire the average BYU student they will get an average Mormon? Are they worrying about someone who will not fit into the corporate culture or are they more concerned about wanting a nose to the grindstone type of worker? Suppose that would depend upon the company HR department.

Wouldn't the biggest detriment to BYU graduates be in the fields of anthropology and archeology? Bet grads from the BYU Ferengi School are appreciated.
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_Kevin Graham
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Re: Biases about BYU outside of Utah

Post by _Kevin Graham »

David, first of all, your math is wrong because you misunderstand the methodology of the study. BYU ranked 71st in an exclusive category of "National Universities," of which there are only 262 according to the survey.

So suddenly your top 2% becomes more like the top 30%! But you're right about one thing. A B grade is not justified. It is more like a C- or maybe even a D+.

Oh, and according to a similar study conducted by Forbes Magazine, BYU is the fourth best school.... in Utah!

Forbes ranks BYU as the 249th best school in the country. Utah is 158th Webere St is 248th and Utah State is 191st. Notre Dame is 50th.
_Enuma Elish
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Re: Biases about BYU outside of Utah

Post by _Enuma Elish »

Kevin Graham wrote:David, first of all, your math is wrong because you misunderstand the methodology of the study. BYU ranked 71st in an exclusive category of "National Universities," of which there are only 262 according to the survey.

So suddenly your top 2% becomes more like the top 30%! But you're right about one thing. A B grade is not justified. It is more like a C- or maybe even a D+.


LOL! Another impressive "LDS Jr College students just want to get married" analysis from Mr. Graham! I'm sure that the over 2,000 accredited colleges in America that don't qualify for academic consideration by the Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching appreciate you denying that they even exist!

Oh, and according to a similar study conducted by Forbes Magazine, BYU is the fourth best school.... in Utah!

Forbes ranks BYU as the 249th best school in the country. Utah is 158th Webere St is 248th and Utah State is 191st. Notre Dame is 50th.


Yes, yes, this is the same "impressive" Forbes list that takes 25% of its ranking via the website "rate my professor.com" and places BYU-I ahead of UCSD! You crack me up!
"We know when we understand: Almighty god is a living man"--Bob Marley
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Biases about BYU outside of Utah

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Another impressive "LDS Jr College students just want to get married" analysis from Mr. Graham! I'm sure that the over 2,000 accredited colleges in America that don't qualify for academic consideration by the Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching appreciate you denying that they even exist!

Why can't you just admit the fact that your assumption was false and BYU doesn't rank 71st out of 2,600? Instead, it ranks 71st out of 262. This is a simple fact and you were wrong.

I never said marriage was the only reason kids go to LDS schools, but Harmony's comment did remind me of a few stories that I thought were very telling. Mormons want their kids to marry other Mormons, and Mormons have a tendency to get married during college years. These are two indisputable facts. So doing the math, naturally LDS parents prefer their kids attend LDS schools as to increase the chances of them falling in love with another member, preferably a returned missionary (I think 90+% of all BYU males served a mission). Getting married isn't a reason for going to college, but for many it is a reason for going to an LDS college.

It is the same reason LDS singles are less likely to go clubbing, but will most likely drive for hours to attend the monthly Young Singles Dance in Atlanta.
Contrary to the opinion of the original poster, BYU does not possess a weak academic reputation.

It seems you're talking past one another. Most of us are referring to academic reputation among academics whereas you're referring to academic reputation among undergrads, based on a silly survey to determine BYU is the most popular school. The American Association of University Professors, which has more than 47,000 professors, has said that BYU's, "infringements on academic freedom are distressingly common and that the climate for academic freedom is distressingly poor." Hmm, that can't be good for its image among non-LDS professors.

Further, the LDS position on gays and gay marriage doesn't add much credibility to BYU in the diversity and tolerance depts. Eventually, BYU will be viewed as another glorified Bob Jones, the same as it happend during the mid-70's when more people became aware of the Church's position on Negros.

Yes, yes, this is the same "impressive" Forbes list that takes 25% of its ranking via the website "rate my professor.com" and places BYU-I ahead of UCSD! You crack me up!


How dare them actually use data provided by the students to determine the value of the school!

As far as me being an apologist, do you really need me to explain to you what an apologist is? I have no dog in this fight, so there is nothing for me to defend. I've already conceded that BYU is an above average school and I have no problem repeating it. But for people like you, that isn't good enough. For you, BYU has to be "outstanding." You're clearly the biased apologist here, trying to recnfigure the data to support your presuppositions about God's school. I remember a similar argument on MAD a couple of years ago where some people were trying to say BYU was the "Ivy League school in the West." Ultimately, all this rhetoric does is tell us nothing about BYU but everthing the apologetic need to see one's own Church's school as something its not.
_Enuma Elish
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Re: Biases about BYU outside of Utah

Post by _Enuma Elish »

Why can't you just admit the fact that your assumption was false and BYU doesn't rank 71st out of 2,600? Instead, it ranks 71st out of 262. This is a simple fact and you were wrong
.

Because it’s not a false assumption, Kevin. There are well-over 2,000 accredited 4 year schools offering college degrees that by the standards determined by the Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching do not even qualify for consideration. According to this system, ranking 71st overall places BYU in the top 2% of American schools. That's not bad!

It seems you're talking past one another. Most of us are referring to academic reputation among academics whereas you're referring to academic reputation among undergrads, based on a silly survey to determine BYU is the most popular school.


No, this is the first time you’ve demonstrated an awareness that the issue at hand involves more than income earned and professional employment. That the OP also made a false statement concerning BYU’s alleged weak reputation in terms of graduate institutions. You were not referring to that point until now; so welcome to the second half of the discussion!

The American Association of University Professors, which has more than 47,000 professors, has said that BYU's, "infringements on academic freedom are distressingly common and that the climate for academic freedom is distressingly poor." Hmm, that can't be good for its image among non-LDS professors.


Clearly it’s not. And yet for some reason, BYU grads continue to have no problem whatsoever getting into the most prestigious and liberal institutions in the country. Go figure!

Further, the LDS position on gays and gay marriage doesn't add much credibility to BYU in the diversity and tolerance depts. Eventually, BYU will be viewed as another glorified Bob Jones, the same as it happend during the mid-70's when more people became aware of the Church's position on Negros.


As a private, religious institution, BYU will never hold much credibility in the diversity and tolerance depts., nor can I imagine that the institution will ever seek it.

How dare them actually use data provided by the students to determine the value of the school!


Indeed, any formula that ranks BYU-I ahead of UCSD ought not to be taken seriously. End of story.

As far as me being an apologist, do you really need me to explain to you what an apologist is?


No, but clearly I need to explain it to you. Look up the word, Kevin. An apologist refers to someone who offers a defense by argument. As an online critic of the LDS church, whether you know it or not, you qualify in every sense of the word.

Ultimately, all this rhetoric does is tell us nothing about BYU but everything the apologetic need to see one's own Church's school as something its not.


In the same way, Mr. Apologist, that your senseless rhetoric critiquing BYU reveals more about you than it does the actual institution itself. Two can play it that game.
"We know when we understand: Almighty god is a living man"--Bob Marley
_harmony
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Re: Biases about BYU outside of Utah

Post by _harmony »

Enuma Elish wrote:
Why can't you just admit the fact that your assumption was false and BYU doesn't rank 71st out of 2,600? Instead, it ranks 71st out of 262. This is a simple fact and you were wrong
.

Because it’s not a false assumption, Kevin. There are well-over 2,000 accredited 4 year schools offering college degrees that by the standards determined by the Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching do not even qualify for consideration. According to this system, ranking 71st overall places BYU in the top 2% of American schools. That's not bad!


Does it really matter which schools BYU is in front of? What matters is who they are behind. To my way of thinking, what with all the supposed inspiration and tithing money being thrown at the place, it should at least break the Top 50. And it doesn't.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Biases about BYU outside of Utah

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Because it’s not a false assumption, Kevin. There are well-over 2,000 accredited 4 year schools offering college degrees that by the standards determined by the Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching do not even qualify for consideration. According to this system, ranking 71st overall places BYU in the top 2% of American schools. That's not bad!

But BYU does not rank 71st out of 2,600. That is how you get your 2%, which is faulty. It ranked 71st when compared to only 262 schools. Now you might assume the other 2400 schools would all fall behind BYU, but this is nots upported by anything you've presented. There is a reason why the study categorized schools according to class. There were only 262 schools in BYU's class, and among that group BYU ranked in the top 30%.

If you want to make a broad sweep of any schools outside BYU's class, then why stop with four year colleges? Just go ahead and include the 20,000 junior-community colleges, assume BYU would be ahead of them if they were all plugged into the same formula, and then declare BYU in the top 1/10 percentile of all colleges. But just because they did not qualify doesn't mean we automatically assume BYU is ahead of them. Why would we want to compare BYU to a Liberal Arts school, or a school with less than 3,000 students? Just so we can say BYU is better? You take that for granted. BYU is simply in a different class of school and it should be compared to others in that same class.

This reminds me of debating NCAA football statistics with a fan who insisted that DIvision I teams, Texas and Alabama didn't have the two best defenses in the country because there were three Division II teams that allowed fewer yds per game. So does this mean North Texas and Florida Atlantic had a better Defense than the Division I National Champs? Of course not. There is a reason the NCAA puts certain teams in different divisions and there is a reason why BYU is not compared to 2,400 other schools.
Clearly it’s not. And yet for some reason, BYU grads continue to have no problem whatsoever getting into the most prestigious and liberal institutions in the country. Go figure

Who said that they did?
As a private, religious institution, BYU will never hold much credibility in the diversity and tolerance depts., nor can I imagine that the institution will ever seek it.

But you have to admit these are two HUGE selling points for Universities all over.
No, but clearly I need to explain it to you. Look up the word, Kevin. An apologist refers to someone who offers a defense by argument. As an online critic of the LDS church, whether you know it or not, you qualify in every sense of the word.

An apologist by definition is someone who "defends a a belief or idea" and its roots are deep in religious apologetics. What "idea" am I defending here? That BYU is an above average school, but not outstanding? By your loose definition, everyone who ever took in a breath is an apologist for something. An apologist is one who staunchly defends something because he or she has a personal stake in the matter. I don't have a personal stake in this matter, but you clearly do. A critic and apologist are not synonymous. Apologists make arguments in defense of silly religious claims, and I critically dissect them to determine what's true. That's not apologetics.

Calling everyone on the other side an apologist is a trick used by you guys to pretend the level of subjectivity is equal on both sides. As if we need the Church to be false as much as you need it to be true. This is absurd. Hell, I wish the Church were true and many other critics do as well. You seem to forget that many of us drank the same kool aide, and remember what it was like living in fantasy land where we were special in the eyes of God because we belonged to his Church, were promised blessings in the hereafter, eternal life, etc etc. Why would anyone not want that to be true?
In the same way, Mr. Apologist, that your senseless rhetoric critiquing BYU reveals more about you than it does the actual institution itself. Two can play it that game.

But I'm not critiquing BYU. I'm simply not going to pretend BYU is something it isn't, and I'm not going to pretend I know nothing about why so many LDS attend BYU. You see everything as an attack on BYU because your apologetic view places it up on a pedestal. Very much like how Evangelicals think Mormons attack the Bible when they point out errors. You're not attacking it, you just don't put it on the pedestal of inerrancy as they do.
_Enuma Elish
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Re: Biases about BYU outside of Utah

Post by _Enuma Elish »

An apologist by definition is someone who "defends a belief or idea" and its roots are deep in religious apologetics.


An “apologist” by definition is someone who practices apologia, which refers to “a formal defense or justification” (The American Heritage Dictionary, 119). An apologist is simply one who offers a defense by argument.

By your loose definition, everyone who ever took in a breath is an apologist for something.


It’s not my “loose definition.” It’s the American Heritage Dictionary definition.

An apologist is one who staunchly defends something because he or she has a personal stake in the matter.


From past experience, I know you believe that you soar above the confines of the English language, and we should all therefore remain subject to your personal definition of words, so forgive me when I offend, but I refuse to accept your pet meaning, which adds that an apologist argues for a position in which “he or she has a personal stake in the matter.” That’s a Kevin Grahamism, and I didn’t think highly of them when you were an apologist for Mormonism. I’m certainly not going to agree to them now that you’re an apologist against the Church.

I don't have a personal stake in this matter, but you clearly do.


Oh, you’ve got plenty of stake in this matter, Kevin. Don’t kid yourself. You may be above the confines of proper English, but you’re sorely mistaken in assuming you’re above human bias.

A critic and apologist are not synonymous.


Of course they’re not. I’m a critic of the types of illogical attacks you employ against the Church in your apologia.

Apologists make arguments in defense of silly religious claims, and I critically dissect them to determine what's true. That's not apologetics.


Let’s rank you, Kevin, as critic, shall we? You ought to give BYU a break, because I’d personally place you a lot lower than 71 on the list of most influential. You and Paul O are about equal in my book. I thought you were both irrational when you were apologists for the Church and alas, your new found journeys into "critical" thought haven't improved my assessment.

Calling everyone on the other side an apologist is a trick used by you guys to pretend the level of subjectivity is equal on both sides.


And refusing to recognize that all humans, including the almighty Kevin Graham, hold biases and are slanted in their views is one of the tricks that you use to pretend that objectivity somehow runs in your favor.

Good grief!
"We know when we understand: Almighty god is a living man"--Bob Marley
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