Biases about BYU outside of Utah

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_Trevor
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Re: Biases about BYU outside of Utah

Post by _Trevor »

Enuma Elish wrote:An “apologist” by definition is someone who practices apologia, which refers to “a formal defense or justification” (The American Heritage Dictionary, 119). An apologist is simply one who offers a defense by argument.


So then you would probably agree with Michael Quinn when he referred to Hamblin and others as FARMS polemicists. After all, a polemicist is simply "an aggressive controversialist" (Merriam-Webster).

Enuma Elish wrote:Let’s rank you, Kevin, as critic, shall we? You ought to give BYU a break, because I’d personally place you a lot lower than 71 on the list of most influential. You and Paul O are about equal in my book. I thought you were both irrational when you were apologists for the Church and alas, your new found journeys into "critical" thought haven't improved my assessment.


You've been getting increasingly ill-tempered and personal lately, or at least it seems that way to me.
Last edited by Guest on Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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_Enuma Elish
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Re: Biases about BYU outside of Utah

Post by _Enuma Elish »

Trevor wrote:You've been getting increasingly ill-tempered and personal lately, or at least it seems that way to me.


I'll take that as a compliment and hope that in reality there's nothing "lately" about it. I've always manifest an ill-tempered public disdain for arrogance of any sort.
"We know when we understand: Almighty god is a living man"--Bob Marley
_Trevor
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Re: Biases about BYU outside of Utah

Post by _Trevor »

Enuma Elish wrote:I'll take that as a compliment and hope that in reality there's nothing "lately" about it. I've always manifest an ill-tempered public disdain for arrogance of any sort.


Well, it wasn't particularly intended as a compliment, and I do not recall offering such an assessment of anyone's board demeanor as a compliment. And yes, I do mean "lately." It is the combination of sharpness and choosing to aim at the person and not the argument that I found unusual. Maybe I haven't watched you closely enough to notice that personal insult is a regular part of your repertoire. I had rather thought that it was not.
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_harmony
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Re: Biases about BYU outside of Utah

Post by _harmony »

Trevor wrote:Well, it wasn't particularly intended as a compliment, and I do not recall offering such an assessment of anyone's board demeanor as a compliment. And yes, I do mean "lately." It is the combination of sharpness and choosing to aim at the person and not the argument that I found unusual. Maybe I haven't watched you closely enough to notice that personal insult is a regular part of your repertoire. I had rather thought that it was not.


That's because it's not, or rather, I think it's not with just about anyone except Kevin. EE does seem to have a problem with Kevin that he doesn't have with anyone else. He's certainly not nearly as sharp with me, even when Kevin and I have been making the same points (Kevin's just better at math than I am, so he picked up on the percentage thing from a different angle than I did.)
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_Kevin Graham
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Re: Biases about BYU outside of Utah

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Yeah I think Dave is still sore with me...

My first encounter with David as an apologist was when I kindly corrected something he said in reference to the biblical word tselem. I showed him a scripture that he said didn't exist, which is something he should have already known since he was the scholar and this in his particular field of expertise. He did not take kindly to being corrected on the subject, and seems to have carried a grudge ever since. I have the original exchange on another computer and sometimes I read it in amazement atthe way he postures himself as a lecturer above reproach. The rest of us are only here to learn from him. Bokovoy is not someone who easily gives in to being wrong.

Later I would correct his silly argument about Joseph Smith's misunderstanding of Revelation 1:6. That exchange is still up in Celestial forum somewhere (I will dig for the link later) I remember him leaving the debate saying he appreciated me giving him much to think about after several days of throwing the kitchen sink at me and watching everything fall flat. I thought maybe his attitude towards me had changed for the best.

Guess not.

So now he is frustrated with me for stating basic facts about his precious BYU, and decides to call me arrogant and attacks me personally, saying I have no influence as a critic (as if that were ever the issue) when it seems he can't just accept the fact that this "nobody" managed to correct him (A Brandeis scholar) on a point or two. His ego isn't prepared for that. I mean, this guy is an educator for the Church. His job is to teach and lecture, not to listen or to be taught, especially when confronted with critics.

And then there was the conniption fit he had after I brought up Ritner's email two years ago. He desperately ran to the defense of his mentor (Peterson) and tried every trick he could come up with to divert attention away from them, and onto me. Starting a thread at MAD attacking me from every angle knowing perfectly well I could not post there to defend myself.

Oh well... maybe one day he'll learn to accept the fact that he doesn't know everything, and that not everyone who is a critic of the Church deserves his invective.
_Trevor
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Re: Biases about BYU outside of Utah

Post by _Trevor »

I notice there was no comment on the "polemicist" issue. So, I am supposing that one is equally justified in calling FARMS scholars polemicists as one is in calling critics "apologists."
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_harmony
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Re: Biases about BYU outside of Utah

Post by _harmony »

Kevin Graham wrote:Oh well... maybe one day he'll learn to accept the fact that he doesn't know everything, and that not everyone who is a critic of the Church deserves his invective.


Well, it might be more germane if he just learned that not every critic of the church is wrong about everything.

Those other 2200+ schools didn't make US News' list because they didn't fit US News' criteria for the list. BYU made the list; it was compared against all of US News' criteria and found to rank #71 on the list. 70 schools are ahead of BYU, including Stanford, UCLA, UW, and another 47 that made the Top 50. BYU didn't make the Top 50. Being #71 shows that BYU is an above average school, but not a Top 50 school.

We know where the problem lies. Why quibble about the rating?

This is not rocket science, and there's nothing wrong with a B. Only the egocentric and overachievers need an A in everything.
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_Enuma Elish
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Re: Biases about BYU outside of Utah

Post by _Enuma Elish »

Kevin Graham wrote:Yeah I think Dave is still sore with me....


There's a lot more to the history than Kevin's brief, misconstrued memory of the past. Personally, I'm not interesting in rehearsing all of the details, suffice it to say that given my ill-tempered disposition, Kevin makes it extremely hard for me to strive to live my religion.

My first encounter with David as an apologist was when I kindly corrected something he said in reference to the biblical word tselem. I showed him a scripture that he said didn't exist, which is something he should have already known since he was the scholar and this in his particular field of expertise. He did not take kindly to being corrected on the subject, and seems to have carried a grudge ever since. I have the original exchange on another computer and sometimes I read it in amazement atthe way he postures himself as a lecturer above reproach. The rest of us are only here to learn from him. Bokovoy is not someone who easily gives in to being wrong
.

Now the truth: I was aware of Psalm 39:6 prior to Kevin's post. Like many other biblical scholars, I simply disagreed then, like I do now that the word tselm is used in the way Kevin assumed.

Later I would correct his silly argument about Joseph Smith's misunderstanding of Revelation 1:6. That exchange is still up in Celestial forum somewhere (I will dig for the link later) I remember him leaving the debate saying he appreciated me giving him much to think about after several days of throwing the kitchen sink at me and watching everything fall flat. I thought maybe his attitude towards me had changed for the best.


I honestly don't remember the details of this discussion, so I can't say with any degree of certainty what did or did not occur. All I recall is that my position was/is that from my theological perspective, Joseph could be both inspired and technically wrong in his interpretation of a scriptural passages' original meaning, as is the case with the Prophet's comments on Revelation 1:6. I don't need to throw anything at you to sustain that view.

And then there was the conniption fit he had after I brought up Ritner's email two years ago. He desperately ran to the defense of his mentor (Peterson) and tried every trick he could come up with to divert attention away from them, and onto me. Starting a thread at MAD attacking me from every angle knowing perfectly well I could not post there to defend myself.


I do have a life outside of my online interactions with you, Kevin. I vaguely remember this event occurring, but I don't even remember any of the details, and to be honest couldn't care less.
"We know when we understand: Almighty god is a living man"--Bob Marley
_Enuma Elish
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Re: Biases about BYU outside of Utah

Post by _Enuma Elish »

harmony wrote:
Trevor wrote:Well, it wasn't particularly intended as a compliment, and I do not recall offering such an assessment of anyone's board demeanor as a compliment. And yes, I do mean "lately." It is the combination of sharpness and choosing to aim at the person and not the argument that I found unusual. Maybe I haven't watched you closely enough to notice that personal insult is a regular part of your repertoire. I had rather thought that it was not.


That's because it's not, or rather, I think it's not with just about anyone except Kevin. EE does seem to have a problem with Kevin that he doesn't have with anyone else. He's certainly not nearly as sharp with me, even when Kevin and I have been making the same points (Kevin's just better at math than I am, so he picked up on the percentage thing from a different angle than I did.)


When dealing in online discussions on issues that carry so much meaning in people's lives, it's sometimes hard not to come across as sharp with someone who holds an opposing view. To the extent that I have done so with Harmony, I apologize. Despite our disagreements, we actually do share quite a bit in common, and I'm quite fond of her.
"We know when we understand: Almighty god is a living man"--Bob Marley
_moksha
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Re: Biases about BYU outside of Utah

Post by _moksha »

Even if one stocks a school with overachieving students, wouldn't a university that by its nature is overly controlling and limiting regarding what can be said and taught have a great deal of impact on the ultimate quality of a student's education? Wouldn't that impact ultimately translate into something less that desirable in terms of learning?
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