Devastating conversation.

[_John D the First]

Perhaps he's not thinking straight. I would tell my dad that even though we disagree I want to always know that my parents will love me and accept me. I would also point out the statements he made that gave me the opposite impression.

Who knows if that would help, but perhaps it would also be useful to remind him that even if you're father is right, and you are truly wayward, that it doesn't mean he will lose you in the next life, as indicated in the following statement:

“The Prophet Joseph Smith declared—and he never taught a more comforting doctrine—that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God” (Orson F. Whitney, in Conference Report, Apr. 1929, 110).

If I left the church, I would want my parents to take this promise seriously, at least to hedge my bets. I would tell my dad that I am doing my best with what I know and feel like I can honestly believe, but that if I'm wrong, that I hope my connection with him will make it so we do not have be apart forever as a result.

Because, you know, you may be wrong. The safety net is kind of nice.

Cheers,

[_zeezrom]

The Dude,

This is one part of the story my wife does not yet know about. I figured my Dad's response would hurt her so I didn't want to share it yet... unless she has read this thread already.

You might want to consider keeping her in the loop on this.

Just happened. It was painful at first but I found she supports me and is actually with me on it.

Praise Jesus! Praise the Lord!!!

I have never said that before- but there is a first time for everything and this is appropriate.

[_ttribe]

Zee,

I'm not going to try to provide you advice on whether or not you should have this conversation with your Dad or how you should go about it if you do. Family's are too variable for me to project onto your situation. However, you did specifically ask me for some non-anti resources for some of the issues you are dealing with; so here are some ideas:

Stone in the hat translation - mentioned in 1993 Ensign by Elder Nelson here: http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?h ... 82620aRCRD

Book of Abraham - brief discussion regarding the ongoing debate relative to the Book of Breathings and the Book of Abraham: http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?h ... 82620aRCRD

Joseph's Practice of Polygamy - the Maxwell Institute's review of In Sacred Loneliness: http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=2&id=290

I've just gone with these three because it seems these are the issues that come up the most. Furthermore, I've intentionally avoided FAIR at this point so that you can provide your Dad with resources he might be more readily familiar with. That's not a disparaging remark on FAIR, at all. However, your Dad will likely feel far more comfortable at the outset with the Ensign and FARMS/MI. Ultimately, I think he should be introduced to the information at FAIR so he can at least see that believing members of the Church can and do acknowledge the existence of some the issues you are concerned about. Finally, while many here deride the book, you may want to have your Dad read Mike Ash's "Shaken Faith Syndrome" since it, too, acknowledges the fact that some of these stories we might have thought were "anti lies" are actually grounded in true events.

[_zeezrom]

Thanks Tim! I really appreciate that!

If it comes up later on, I will provide him some of this information.

Because, you know, you may be wrong. The safety net is kind of nice.

Thanks John.

I'm perfectly fine knowing I could be wrong. In fact, it feels better to believe in something knowing I could be wrong because it takes the worry out of it.

When I was believing in the Book of Mormon a year ago, I harbored fear that I might be wrong. I had to constantly assert myself that I knew it was from God. What purpose did that serve to force myself to "know" that?

[_Tchild]

Zee -

I remember when I went through similiar conversations with loved ones about my exit from Mormonism.

I found that delving into what was wrong with Mormonism was a flashpoint of contention and bad feelings. It never works to find common ground, because you are attacking their cherished beliefs. If at all possible, stay away from Joseph Smith and polemical foundational claims of Mormonism. What I found that worked, and that bridged the divide, was focusing on how I saw the world from my eyes, my experiences of what I felt was "true" or reality based.

If you frame your worldview much like Mormons frame their testimony, then if they deny you your viewpoint, you have every right to deny them theirs. It is a two way street. Plus, if gives you the moral high ground if they contest or challenge your "testimony" of reality.

Good luck.

[_Dr. Shades]

Shades: if I cancel now, it will just be postponed. It is inevitable.

In that case, make it clear to him that you don't want to discuss Mormonism in any way, shape, or form.

The questions are like this: "How is your testimony of ____________?" No matter what, those questions will be asked.

When that question is asked, reply with "I don't wish to answer that question at this time." If it doesn't sink in, then reply with, "That's none of your business."

He's already proven that a straightforward answer will just make him mad.

[_Wiki Wonka]

Hi Zeezrom,

As a father who has experienced this situation, I understand something of your father's perspective. Anyone who says that your father loves the Church more than you is very, very wrong. I think that the following advice is the best that I've seen offered so far:

Runtu mentioned looking at things from your father's perspective, and I agree. I disagree with the person that said that your father loves the church more than you - your father doesn't know how to love you through a different worldview than the LDS one. Keep in mind he does love you, even if maybe he has a hard time communicating it without going Clint Eastwood/tough love on you.

My advice is to show him that the person he raised, taught principals and values to, and sent off into the world is still the good, strong, and virtuous person that he hoped you'd become.

Don't try to show him that your information is better than his, it won't work.

Instead, show him that the underlying and purposeful reasons for those religious beliefs he cares about are strong, and while he may not agree with your viewpoint, give him reason to be proud of you.

WW

[_RockSlider]

Kevin Graham is completely wrong. In no way has your father even considered picking the Church over you. Luckily, in the Mormon faith this is not choice one has to make, at least nowadays.

As I noted in a post on the other thread ... yes he is picking the church over his son, but he does not realize it, or intend it as that, but ultimately the Elephant more likely to triumph, and that just should not be

[_Runtu]

As I noted in a post on the other thread ... yes he is picking the church over his son, but he does not realize it, or intend it as that, but ultimately the Elephant more likely to triumph, and that just should not be

The way I look at it, he believes the church is true, and therefore that membership and faith in it is beneficial (even essential) to his son's eternal wellbeing. So, by rejecting the church, his son is doing something he sees as harmful. In that sense, he's both choosing the church but also wanting to protect his son.

It's way too facile a statement to say he's choosing the church over his son.

[_zeezrom]

We had lunch and it ended better than expected.

I started the discussion by telling Dad the great things he taught me growing up and how much I appreciate him. That softened things quite a bit.

He did most the talking and I just listened. He said a few things about polygamy and related it to weird things God made Old Testament guys do and I started to feel my blood pressure rise but let it go.

The word testimony was stated nearly 347 times (I'm guessing) and it started to bother me a bit. He told me a testimony is the most important thing in the world for us. I spoke up and said, "How you act on your "testimony" is the most important." and he agreed with that... I think. He asked what is your testimony between 1-10? I paused and he said his was about 10 and that there were times in his life when he didn't feel like he was motivated at church or getting a little lazy in his spiritual life where he was less than 10. I told him I currently spend many hours on my church calling and feel very motivated to do things at home: FHE, prayers, etc. He wanted to make the connection between laziness and testimony but I didn't let him!

He asked if I was into pornography. What the?! ...argh! I told him I actually feel like a stronger person now than a year ago before questioning. I told him even though I'm struggling to figure things out, I would not trade this time to be back to before because I've learned so much about life. I told him I feel like I have a true reason to be a good father and husband: because I'm holding on to things that are real - I'm feeling the benefit of focusing more on my wife and kids and it gives me joy. My my wife and I have recently become more strict on movie ratings since our doubting. I told him that.

After some more talking, he said, "Boy you are being quiet. What are the issues causing problems with Joseph Smith?"
I said, "I was going to tell you about things I read but realized you don't want to see them and it would not do us any good." I reminded him of my sources and made note of RSR if he wanted to know where I was coming from.
He said, "Well, what about Orson Pratt [he meant "Orson Hyde"] being sent on a mission when Joseph Smith married his wife? What does that do to your testimony?"
I said, "I've moved on. The details of that are not currently festering in me. It is what it is."

He told me about how people repent of moral sins and bishops and SPs forgive and accept them lovingly. He said I should not judge church leaders harshly but be loving towards them in a similar manner. I said I hope people look at me as someone struggling and accept me with love too. He agreed with that and shared more feelings about how he just wants to help me. I told him I appreciate it but this is for me alone to figure out - I can't use anyone else's belief to change my interpretation of things.

That was about it.

Thanks everyone. Your ideas helped me make things better.

Does my Dad know all the details of my beliefs? No. Does he need to? No.