John Gee wrote:“how the Book of Abraham was translated is unimportant. The Church does not stand or fall on the Book of Abraham.”
Wait a minute. Back up the bus.
The Book of Abraham is in the canon. Is he saying the church does not stand on the canon????
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
More craziness from the apologists. This issue is directly related to JSJr being a true or false prophet. A chain is only as good as its weakest link.
The Book of Abraham may not be essential to the gospel, but it is certainly vital evidence in assessing the truth of Joseph's claims to prophethood. If that doesn't stand up, the gospel claims are redundant.
"The Book of Abraham is not central to the restored gospel of Christ."
Brother Gee is wrong here. It does not matter how many times the Book of Abraham has been quoted in GC. The fact of the matter is that the Book of Abraham is represented as scripture and so it must be true by some standard.
"The Book of Abraham is not central to the restored gospel of Christ."
Brother Gee is wrong here. It does not matter how many times the Book of Abraham has been quoted in GC. The fact of the matter is that the Book of Abraham is represented as scripture and so it must be true by some standard.
One of the very few thing I agree with bcspace. The Book of Abraham is represented as scripture.
by the way " ... it must be true by some standard ... " ... some ... I like this phrasing.
I know of nothing poorer Under the sun, than you, you Gods! ... Should I honour you? Why?
John Gee wrote:“how the Book of Abraham was translated is unimportant. The Church does not stand or fall on the Book of Abraham.”
Wait a minute. Back up the bus.
The Book of Abraham is in the canon. Is he saying the church does not stand on the canon????
The changing world of Mormonism will give way to what ever changes are necessary to kick it ticking. Eventually, I presume, the Facsimiles will be yanked from LDS cannon. No explanation will be given as to why they are yanked, just like there was no explanation to why the penalties in the temple were yanked. The brethren at the top do as they please, they don’t answer to the worker bees of the church. Just toe the line, Harmony, and keep silent in the church. It is not permitted for you to speak. Use your temple voice only and hush up. The brethren know what they are doing. Their primary mission in life is to keep the tithing dollars flowing in.
"The Book of Abraham is not central to the restored gospel of Christ."
Brother Gee is wrong here. It does not matter how many times the Book of Abraham has been quoted in GC. The fact of the matter is that the Book of Abraham is represented as scripture and so it must be true by some standard.
Our Book of Abraham was invented by a man who was a lover of many women. Joseph Smith was determined to be an Abraham of modern times and to be like a king with a harem greater than Solomon’s. To do this, he had to make himself like an Abraham and get his people to accept him as such. Joseph Smith was totally addicted to sex, his drug of choice.
Come and listen to a prophet’s voice:
Icki-iky-o-mie-gos Moo-Omn-peni-enishsh-go!!
I interpret the words “knee pads” somewhere in that phrase. How pitiful. Don’t be a sucker BC. Reject the papyrus translation of Joseph Smith and embrace reason.
In contrast to Paul, in my mind, Joseph Smith’s use and interpretation of Facsimile 3 provides one of the greatest pieces of evidence for the Prophet’s inspiration.
From an Egyptian perspective, Facsimile 3 depicts the deceased Hor being introduced to Osiris after having been declared innocent in the Hall of Two Truths. As Michael Rhodes explains, at this stage, Hor is now “worthy to enter the presence of Osiris.” The Hor Book of Breathings: A Translation and Commentary, 23.
Historically, this standard Egyptian presentation scene derives from ancient Sumer. Like the LDS temple endowment, this ancient Near Eastern portrayal presents a sacred walk into the presence of deity.
“The approaching individual usually wears a simple fringed garment draped over one shoulder, and one arm at least is bent at the elbow, the hand raised almost to the lips in what seems to be a gesture of greeting” I.J. Winter, “The King and the Cup: Iconography of the Royal Presentation Scene on Ur III Seals,” Insight Through Images: Studies in Honor of Edith Porada, (Malibu: Undena Publications, 1986): 254.
During this sacred walk, the owner of the seal/papyrus appears helped along by means of a sacred handclasp (in the case of Facsimile 3, the deceased Hor clasps hands with the goddess Isis, sister/wife of Osiris, wearing cow horns with a moon disk, the standard headdress of both Isis and Hathor).
These type of ritual gestures appear in biblical tradition connected with temple worship described in the Psalms: “Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end… I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand. Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory” (Psalm 73:17-24).
As suggested in this passage, the clasping of the right hand of God denotes a continual state of at-one-ment with God. As biblical scholar Hans~Joachim Kraus explains concerning these references:
“This [the clasping of the right hand] points to a royal (might we even say, messianic?) procedure. The formula, ‘God grasps- one by the hand, when the king ascends the throne and is inducted into royal office, denotes the conferring of privilege and charisma on the king (Isaiah 45:1; 42:1).” Hans~Joachim Kraus, Theology of the Psalms, pg. 173.
Now in the Book of Abraham, the Prophet Joseph Smith took this scene and gave it a new Sitz in Leben or “setting in life” connected with Abraham. This process, whereby an author takes an ancient text/portrayal and places it into a new context happens regularly throughout the Hebrew Bible. Indeed, it’s the very historical process whereby many scriptural text came into existence. By using the symbol representing Osiris to denote an enthroned Abraham, Joseph created an impressive prefiguration of Abraham’s exaltation as deity:
“Abraham received all things, whatsoever he received, by revelation and commandment, by my word, saith the Lord, and hath entered into his exaltation and sitteth upon his throne” (D&C 132:29)
As Nicholas Wyatt explains, enthronement, from a Near Eastern perspective, signifies a movement to apotheosis:
“The rituals which transform status of the earthly king, removing him from ‘merely human’ status to that of a sacral figure, to be couched in a narrative about a god, carries with it the hint that the king himself is to be seen as transformed into a god… the enthronement of the king, is thus his apotheosis” N. Wyatt, “Degrees of Divinity: Some Mythical and Ritual Aspects of West Semitic Kingship,” Ugarit-Forschungen 31:1999, 857.
Hence, Facsimile 3 ties in perfectly with the Prophet Joseph's theology, indeed, from my perspective, it's one of the greatest pieces of evidence for Joseph's inspiration:
"You have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power.” Joseph Smith, Teachings, 346-47.
"We know when we understand: Almighty god is a living man"--Bob Marley
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
Enuma Elish wrote:Hence, Facsimile 3 ties in perfectly with the Prophet Joseph's theology, indeed, from my perspective, it's one of the greatest pieces of evidence for Joseph's inspiration:
"You have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power.” Joseph Smith, Teachings, 346-47.
What a beautiful quote for all of us! We can learn to be gods! Since it is so easy to be good and moral people, let's forget about that and move on! Who cares about the super boring idea of being nice to someone! That is so anti-climatic. Let's focus instead on becoming exalted with the gods to sit in burning white light and powerful glory! Forget about helping a suffering girl with special needs (whom I saw at the park on Saturday). All she wanted was someone to swing with her. I saw another girl help her swing and she smiled as if it was more joy than she had known all week. How boring! Forget about that. Let's go to the temple and perform godly ordinances for dead people! What a load of crap. Even if the Book of Abraham were flawless, I don't want any part of it.
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)
While hyenas are in the midst of a frenzy of ripping, tearing and gouging at a raw, juicy carcass, its a difficult thing to jump into the middle of the fray and restore order, but that's what you have attempted to do enuma, and kudos for your attempt.
I'm afraid, however, that there are very, very few here, let alone alleged serious intellectuals like Paul Osborne who like to act out online like grounded teenagers mad at their parents, who are going to take what you have said seriously, read and digest the relevant LDS scholarship on the matter, and come to a cool, informed conclusion on the matter based on familiarity with those materials.
There are so many striking parallels in the ancient world, not the least of which is ancient Egyptian religion and symbology, that one would be hard pressed; indeed, one would have to engage, if one is familiar with the relevant scholarship, in a willful suspension of rational thought in order to preserve the idea that Joseph Smith somehow concocted the Book of Abraham from his fertile imagination, and the the numerous bulls-eyes he hit in his interpretations of the facsimiles were nothing more than a long string of highly improbable good guesses.
For me its when one really delves into the Old Testament pseudipigrapha New Testament apocrypha, midrash, and other ancient sources and sees the same patterns, motifs, ritual scenarios, and ideas portrayed by each culture, each in its own way and yet representing the same fundamental concepts and core schemas regarding the nature and purpose of existence and human's place within the cosmos, that Joseph's production of the Book of Abraham looks ever more like revelation than literary creation.
I agree with bc here that Gee is simply wrong, and unaccountably so, when he claims for the Book of Abraham a peripheral status in the Church. The Book of Abraham is canon scripture and contains among the deepest and most profound doctrines and concepts found within the restored gospel.
Nibley's work on the Book of Abraham has, over decades, shown just how thoroughly interpenetrated its motifs and concepts are throughout the eastern, near eastern, and even ancient western worlds, and how easy it is to poke holes in the critics' arguments if one is willing to take a deeper look at all the relevant evidence as a body.
Of course, the only way to know that the Book of Abraham is divinely inspired scripture is through the principle of revelation. Scholarship is only an adjunct to this, but its power to support a positive view of Joseph as having far more knowledge of the materials he had than he possibly could have had, is startling.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us
- President Ezra Taft Benson
I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.