zzyzx wrote:"not his affair (for which no documentary evidence exists)."
Sure can't trust Oliver Cowardly and his statements of the 'dirty and nasty affair', can we. After all, the guy must be a born Liar and nothing he said is trustworthy. ----------------------
"Faith always plays a major role over evidence."
This is why LDSinc has the same problem as the Catholics. Took the RomeBoys a few hundred years to admit the Earth is round, not flat... Failure to admit reality doesn't change it.
First, from whom did Oliver hear this from? How did he know what was really going on? Who told him? Emma? I don't think so. Also, oliver was a little disappointed with Joseph before the fanny event. I kinda feel sorry for oliver. Here is wrote something to his brother off the cuff, (like many of us do at the heat of the moment) and it is still being repeated to this day for use against Joseph.
However, never said that the church was a fraud or Joseph Smith was a conman. And that would have been the moment to do it. And he did come back and shared his testimony before his death on his deathbed.
Also this affair seems not have bothered the parents of fanny nor her brother since all were proud that fanny and joseph were sealed. And this feeling lasted until their deaths in Utah.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
Dr. Shades wrote:But we found the portion that he did "translate." That's all that matters.
Back then, nobody could read Egyptian, so there was no risk of being uncovered.
To my understanding the JSP was around for a long time and emma and his mom would show strangers the JSP after Joseph Smith was murdered. It just doesn't seem like a something I would allow happen if I were a conman or if I believed my son or spouse was a conartist.
It is not so simple to say that he did translate that portion that was found. And you know that. When this all came out, and was published in The Improvement Era, I don't see a mass exodus from the lds church.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
why me wrote:Not quite. I have a rather open mind about it all. But if I had an absolute belief that Joseph Smith was a fraud like harmony, I would have left long ago. What would be the point of staying a member? Harmony, over and over again, makes statements that Joseph Smith was a sex fanatic and a fraud. And yet, she remains. I make no such statements.
She, like emma, is a Mormon enigma.
Don't tell me what I believe, why me. And don't tell me what to do. Just because a man doesn't appear to be in control of his ego or his libido doesn't mean he was a sex fanatic and a fraud.
And if I was as patient as Emma, I'd be a lot better at accepting Joseph's actions.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
why me wrote:Harmony acts like a believer and yet, she really does not believe.
Of course I act like a believer. I am a believer. I'm just not a believer in what you think I should be. And since you don't walk around in my skin and I'm not sure you've ever been exposed to the gospel of Jesus Christ, I'm not surprised that you don't know what I believe in.
At least I try to live what I believe, why me. I'm not often successful, but I try.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
why me wrote:Harmony acts like a believer and yet, she really does not believe. If one believes that Joseph was a sexaholic and a fraud, how can one believe in the church? It is a contradiction. If I had harmony's attitude toward Joseph Smith, I would never be a member.
This is not the Church of Joseph Smith.
Where is the requirement to believe Joseph Smith was honest?
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)
harmony wrote:Don't tell me what I believe, why me. And don't tell me what to do. Just because a man doesn't appear to be in control of his ego or his libido doesn't mean he was a sex fanatic and a fraud.
Really?? And can you give an example of such a man, so I can see what you're talking about?
AND thanks for helping me substantiate my comment. . . I really, really have been wanting to add something without it being considered a derail. . .
P.S. I keep seeing the title of this topic and have to keep double checking to make sure it says what I thought it says, because it brings to mind the little voltron song. . . just think "John Gee, defender. . of. . the universe". :)
harmony wrote:Don't tell me what I believe, why me. And don't tell me what to do. Just because a man doesn't appear to be in control of his ego or his libido doesn't mean he was a sex fanatic and a fraud.
Really?? And can you give an example of such a man, so I can see what you're talking about?
According to some here, no man is in control of his libido (see the discussion about adultery). And having an inflated ego does not mean the guy's a fraud. It just means he has an overinflated opinion of himself.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
harmony wrote:According to some here, no man is in control of his libido (see the discussion about adultery). And having an inflated ego does not mean the guy's a fraud. It just means he has an overinflated opinion of himself.
That is an interesting take on it, harmony. Thanks for sharing.
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)
harmony wrote:According to some here, no man is in control of his libido (see the discussion about adultery). And having an inflated ego does not mean the guy's a fraud. It just means he has an overinflated opinion of himself.
That is an interesting take on it, harmony. Thanks for sharing.
That's what Danie sometimes said, right before he went for the jugular.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
harmony wrote:According to some here, no man is in control of his libido (see the discussion about adultery). And having an inflated ego does not mean the guy's a fraud. It just means he has an overinflated opinion of himself.
Hmmmm. . . well maybe it has to do with the original word usage. being not in "control" would suggest his libido/ego is out of control, and maybe that alone doesn't implicate him (if he happens to be locked up in a rubber room and a straight-jacket. If he can't control his ego/libido "bad things" are gonna happen. . . I would even venture to say, it's a given. That's why it would be helpful to understand your point better, if you were to have a particular man in mind who's uncontrollable libido/ego didn't lead to "bad things".