The Internet is Killing the Church?

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_Kevin Graham
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The Internet is Killing the Church?

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Has the internet had a negative impact on Church Growth? In another thread Nightlion posted a presentation by my good buddy Roger Loomis. He argued that his findings led him to believe the internet affecting Church growth was something of a myth. I'd like to challenge that assessment if anyone is interested in this topic. Roger said:

In 1995, 6.7% of Americans were on the Internet. That percentage exploded to nearly 60% by the end of 2000. I ran regressions on the slowdown of Church growth against the percentage of people in American and in the world who are on the Internet. The proliferation of the Internet doesn't appear to be a significant factor of the declining church growth in the 90's--the slowdown in growth started before most people had even heard of the Internet, and the slowdown did not accelerate when the popularity of the Internet mushroomed.


I think once we conder several other factors, the traditional theory about the internet having a negative affect on the Church will be well supported. For one, it isn't enough to simply add up annual missionary numbers along with convert baptisms, during the years the internet was booming. Roger makes a good point that growth rates had already been on the gradual decline just before the Internet took off, but there are good reasons why that was so. Instead of using gross convert baptisms figures, I think using a "converts per missionary" (since the size of the missionary force goes up and down) stat is a more reliable metric when trying to ascertain the level of success the Church has in converting others. So consider the following chart:

Image

During most of the 80's the baptisms per missionary figures were fairly stable, fluctuating between 6.6 and 7.1 baptisms per missionary. Between 1980 and 1986 the number of missions worldwide increased by only five. However between 1987 and 1989 there were 34 new missions created. In 1990 alone, the Church created another 28 missions. So between 1986 and 1990, the Church went from 193 missions to 256 (any discrepancy in the math is due to the closing of other missions).

Now in the chart you can see a boom in baptisms per missionary in 1989 and 1990, each year yielding over 8 baptisms per missionary. The reason for this is not due so much to the increase of missions, but rather where those missions are built. Particularly in poorer countries with where baptisms are easier to come by, and the people are generally divorced from most forms of mass communication (i.e. information). Also, keep in mind that a large number of missions created in any particular year will not yield a large number of converts that same year. It generally takes a at least a year or two for missions to get organized, create a conversion base, and gradually use those conversions for future member referrals (most converts are member referrals).

So my argument is that the boom in conversion efficiency between 1989-1990 was probably a result of a serious increase in missions created in countries that traditionally see higher rates of conversions. Countries that have a very high rate of conversion are generally third world countries, particularly anywhere in Latin/South America and the Polynesian Islands (Phillipines, New Zealand -places where internet access is more scarce)

So for instance, in 1981 and 1988 the Church only saw a net increase of 34 missions, and of those missions created only 20% were Stateside missions. More than 45% of those missions were based in Latin American countries, and 27% were based in either the Phillipines or Africa. Only 8% of them were based in Europe, which has the worst conversion rates in the world.

So after planting these seeds in countires with a high yield, the average missionary saw a higher production in 1989 and 1990. The next interesting thing we see is a dramatic drop in 1991-1992, and I think we can safely attribute this to the fall of the Berlin wall which opened up mission opportunities the Church never before had. So in 1990, for instance, 32% of the 28 new missions were based in Europe. The problem here is that Europe, especially Eastern Europe, is an extremely difficult place to gain converts. So with 11 New missions to Europe, along with a new one to an equally difficult Japan, the church would naturally see a drop in conversion rates.

So what we see next is a gradual leveling off in production rates up until 1994. And even though the missions increased between 1991 and 1994, we begin to see the final downturn of the Church's growth rates in 1995. Between 1991-94, 7 of those missions would be to Russia and 11 would be to Europe (both areas with extremely low conversion rates), however the Church would offset that loss in production by building a whopping 31 missions in Latin America, 8 to the Polynesian Islands, and 9 to Africa, all of which are third world countries with much higher conversion rates. So this I believe explains why teh figures saw a slight rebound and leveling off between 1992-1994.

Now this brings to the "big dive of 1995" which obviously corresponds to the era and rage of the Internet, along with the birth and popularity of Windows 95. I don't think this is just a coincidence. Roger said by the year 2000 60% of Americans were on the internet, and I think we can safely say that figure rose each year after that. So what the Church saw from 1995 and on was a miserable decline with no end in sight. What was a baptism per missionary rate of 6.35, become 6.25, which became 6.07 the following year, and then 5.62, and then 5.17, and then 5.22 and by the year 2000 missionaries were only averaging 4.5 baptisms. Eventually, the rate hit an all time low in 2003 at 4.31 baptisms per missionary.

Now the Church is essentially a corporate structure that plays by corporate rules, so they have their teams doing their analyses trying to figure out how to offset the decline in business. So I don't think it is any surprise to see what the follow chart tells us, which probably explains the slight improvement in 1999:

Image

As you can see the Church started cutting way down on its funding for newer missions, and it is very selective in where they place them. Since 2003, 71% of all new missions have been opened in third world countries, only 1 in Europe and 2 in Japan. This is probably what accounts for the slight improvement in conversion rates for 2006-2007 as well.

In 2008 the Church had a net increase of ZERO missions, and in 2009 its net increase was -4! That's right, the graph wasn't a mistake for that year. In 2007 the Church had 348 missions and in 2009 it had 344, and the only mission that I know of being created in 2010 is one in Nicaragua.

If we can't attribute this to the massive dissemination of information, then what else can explain it? I see teh church fighting an uphill battle, treating spiritual conversions like a commodity that has to be won using coporate techniques. Throwing money at certain areas to offset losses and meet production goals.

Anyway, I look forward to some feedback...
_Darth J
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Re: The Internet is Killing the Church?

Post by _Darth J »

Dammit, that's the study I had been trying to find.

I think the numbers part is a good discussion, but I think another interesting issue is the internet killing the Church in substance, as Dr. Shade's internet/chapel Mormon is a very real phenomenon.

You know what I would love, among other things? I would love to be there to see what's his name gave a talk in Sacrament Meeting about Heavenly Mother's name is Ashera and The Book of Mormon talks about Her.

EDIT: My second favorite thing would be a gospel doctrine class based on a thread started on MADB.
_Polygamy-Porter
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Re: The Internet is Killing the Church?

Post by _Polygamy-Porter »

Yes the internet is a HUGE stone cut from the mountain of truth and it has rolled forth and blocked the flow of BS from SLC.
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_Nightlion
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Re: The Internet is Killing the Church?

Post by _Nightlion »

Kevin Graham wrote:
Anyway, I look forward to some feedback...


All those new missions in fruitful fields should have kept producing but dropped off after 1991. It did not help when even MORE missions were added each year. The trend has been down since.

There needs also to be a study of disaffection to realize what the trends have been in inactivity and leaving the Church. I argue that the same Spirit that should draw people in should keep them in against all the fiery darts of the Adversary. This has failed as if the Spirit of the Lord is grieved.

I will affirm that there was grace and witness and power in the Spirit before 1991 in the LDS Church. I do not think these gifts were taken from any who possessed them still, if you can find one.

I would like to discover, as I suspect, that it has become even more rare since September 15, 1991. I would not begrudge there being lots of lots of grace. Its pretense is rampant. I am only concerned with the rare genuine gifts. Since April 3, 2009 I expect absolutely nothing of the kind.

I also expect that the sum total of internet LDS investigators/bashers is wholly insignificant. Only to us who are too familiar with boarding does it appear otherwise.

Are there Golden Investigators these days? Is the Lord preparing people to join the Church? Or is it only corporate management of assets and acquisition strategy anymore.

On my mission (1970-72) the power of the Holy Ghost fell upon me to testify to a couple torn between joining the Church. Was it my faith to be convincing that brought down that gift? Yes. did they join? Yes. Does that still happen?

Figures that you might prefer a more secular discussion. Sorry.
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_Malcolm
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Re: The Internet is Killing the Church?

Post by _Malcolm »

Kevin writes that, 71% of all new missions have been opened in third world countries".

Obviously, the church needs new converts to contribute to the tithing coffers, and where better to seek converts/money than from folk who are not yet conversant with the history of the Morg.? Once they become aware of the Joseph Smith shenanigans, Polygamy, Racism, and the like, they may feel more like keeping their pennies in a Piggy Bank rather than contributing to the shopping malls in SLC.

I don't think that the Internet is killing LDSInc exactly, but it is certainly putting the facts out there. I am pleasantly surprised to find just how much Mormonic stuff is out there in the ether. Let's have even more!
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_why me
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Re: The Internet is Killing the Church?

Post by _why me »

I would say that the internet is not having a positive affect on the church. And so, there is a negative side affect. However, if a searcher can wade his or her way through the negative mud and get to the other side, the mud will be washed away.

I don't think that there are more negative sites about any other church than the LDS church. And a lot of the information on these sites mix some facts with a lot of speculation to increase the doubt in people reading the information. What these antimormon sites do is shed doubt about the LDS church. But no site can claim that the LDS church is false or as been proven false. And if the mud surfer can reach the more cleaner sites such as lightplanet or the fairwiki, much of the mud can be cleansed away.

The goal for the mud sites: increase doubt. And they do a good job in mudding the water.

The goal of the prolds sites: wash the mud away.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
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_why me
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Re: The Internet is Killing the Church?

Post by _why me »

Malcolm wrote:Kevin writes that, 71% of all new missions have been opened in third world countries".

Obviously, the church needs new converts to contribute to the tithing coffers, and where better to seek converts/money than from folk who are not yet conversant with the history of the Morg.? Once they become aware of the Joseph Smith shenanigans, Polygamy, Racism, and the like, they may feel more like keeping their pennies in a Piggy Bank rather than contributing to the shopping malls in SLC.

I don't think that the Internet is killing LDSInc exactly, but it is certainly putting the facts out there. I am pleasantly surprised to find just how much Mormonic stuff is out there in the ether. Let's have even more!


As I said, the goal of the antimormon internet sites is to increase doubt. Take your take on it. It is definitely antimormon internet influenced. However, since answers are out there that clear the mud from people's eyes, the goal is to get them to the cleaner waters. And what about polygamy? I think that some of the tesimonies of the women involved are quite strong. And the truthful witness that they received is powerful.

And in some parts of the world, polygamy is actually admired, especially in african subcultures...ie, the president of south africa.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_Kevin Graham
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Re: The Internet is Killing the Church?

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Good point. When you focus on third world countries, you get more baptisms bt also lower activity rates along with less tithes. So there is a trade off. The Church is in a tough spot.

About activity in the Church, it is roughly around 35% worldwide. In South America activity rates are usually around 24-25%. I think in N. America is is around 35-40%, and of course in Europe and Russia it can be as low as 20%. The best study on this can be found at Dave Stewarts website cumorah.com.

What this really means is that the CHurch is full of craop when they advertise "13 million strong." In reality it is about 4.5 million that can be considered in any sense active, and out of that, maybe 2.5 who are really "strong." Hell, theys till consider me a member. Most people who leave don't bother to have their names removed, and the CHurch never removes them until you do. Other Churches like the SDA remove names after a certain period of inactivity has passed, and they are mopping the floors with the Mormon Church as far as growth is concerned.
_why me
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Re: The Internet is Killing the Church?

Post by _why me »

Nightlion wrote:
Kevin Graham wrote:
Anyway, I look forward to some feedback...


All those new missions in fruitful fields should have kept producing but dropped off after 1991. It did not help when even MORE missions were added each year. The trend has been down since.

There needs also to be a study of disaffection to realize what the trends have been in inactivity and leaving the Church. I argue that the same Spirit that should draw people in should keep them in against all the fiery darts of the Adversary. This has failed as if the Spirit of the Lord is grieved.

I will affirm that there was grace and witness and power in the Spirit before 1991 in the LDS Church. I do not think these gifts were taken from any who possessed them still, if you can find one.

I would like to discover, as I suspect, that it has become even more rare since September 15, 1991. I would not begrudge there being lots of lots of grace. Its pretense is rampant. I am only concerned with the rare genuine gifts. Since April 3, 2009 I expect absolutely nothing of the kind.

I also expect that the sum total of internet LDS investigators/bashers is wholly insignificant. Only to us who are too familiar with boarding does it appear otherwise.

Are there Golden Investigators these days? Is the Lord preparing people to join the Church? Or is it only corporate management of assets and acquisition strategy anymore.

On my mission (1970-72) the power of the Holy Ghost fell upon me to testify to a couple torn between joining the Church. Was it my faith to be convincing that brought down that gift? Yes. did they join? Yes. Does that still happen?

Figures that you might prefer a more secular discussion. Sorry.


What is happening today is foretold. And the battle has begun. Sure many people fall prey to the internet. Doubt is a very strong emotion and it can overcome the spirit. It did during Paul's time too. He, Paul, cautions the members not to succumb to the temptations around them, nor to the false teachers that were sowing doubt. The antimormon internet can be compared to the false teachers of Paul's time.

I have seen it on the catholic site as catholics paste and post a quotation of Brigham Young or Joseph Smith. I then go to fair and clear it up. Most people surf the internet about Mormonism but they do not do deep water fishing. It is the surfers that have problems. And lets fact it, Mormonism has a lot of anti sites on the internet And more are being born everyday. Why the focus on the LDS church? Why do people wish to prevent its growth? All faiths have skeletons in their closet. All faiths can have doubt shed upon them. But why the stress with the LDS church and who is behind it?
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_Kevin Graham
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Re: The Internet is Killing the Church?

Post by _Kevin Graham »

The goal of teh sites you hate so much is to simple educate people. You don't want that. The Mormon Church wants prospective converts to be as ignorant of Mormonism as possible, so they can then send in the teenage missionaries to tell them all the psoitives and none of the bad stuff. There is nothing respectable about that position, and there is nothing intellectual in calling everything you can't stand to hear "mud" and everything you like to hear "clean."

And what about polygamy? I think that some of the tesimonies of the women involved are quite strong. And the truthful witness that they received is powerful.


What the F? Who said anything about polygamy?

OK why me, you go rely on the testimonies of polygamists to help growth rates. If you think these testimonies are going to change the minds of the vast majority of American women, then good for you. I really hope you're that stupid.

And in some parts of the world, polygamy is actually admired, especially in african subcultures...ie, the president of south africa.


What the hell is your point when the Church has already denounced polygamy and stated it is an excommunicable offense? You're saying it is something to be admired? Why would I admire a man who had an uncontrollable sex drive, used his position of authority to sway women into being "sealed" to him, and then lied about it to the world? You have to be the only Mormon left who is dumb enough t use polygamy as evidence that the Church has something we should "admire"!
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