Politics and Apostasy

[_Runtu]

Yesterday I was reading an analysis of why liberals have made better use of the Internet as a political tool than have conservatives. The author, a political science professor at UC Irvine, cites a Harvard study that shows that political ideology shapes a group's approach to community and discussion.

"Liberals, the research finds, are oriented toward community activism, employing technology to encourage debate and feature user-generated content. Conservatives, on the other hand, are more comfortable with a commanding leadership and use restrictive policies to combat disorderly speech in online forums."

If this is true (and the Harvard study suggests it is), it's no wonder that political discussion on the web skews left, as the Internet is tailor-made for a more anarchic style of debate and activism. And, though the article doesn't mention talk radio, it's easy to see that a mediated talk show, such as Rush Limbaugh or Glenn Beck, provides "commanding leadership" and maintains orderly speech and practices.

Thus, liberals tend to be more comfortable with activism, such as joining public demonstrations or boycotts, whereas conservatives generally work within established political structures. I think, for example, of my parents, who are deeply committed conservatives and Latter-day Saints. They had a Prop 8 sign in their yard, and they have donated generously to conservative candidates. However, they would never dream of demonstrating; my mother once reacted in horror when my brother suggested that, given the right cause, he would take to the streets. (Obviously, with the advent of the Tea Party movement, conservative activism is changing.)

It occurred to me that this same affinity for hierarchy and order might also be one reason Mormons tend to be conservative. I had always assumed that church members adopted conservative positions because they saw them as more compatible with the church's doctrines, and that's clearly true for such issues as abortion. But the link between Mormonism and, say, laissez-faire capitalism seems less clear. Maybe it is just that, as a whole, conservatism is more hierarchical and less anarchic, and that works well for people whose religion reflects that structure.

Some people around here have mentioned that people tend to move left in their politics upon leaving the LDS church, and though I don't have any data to support that belief, that's true for at least some people I know. The default assumption from some people is that, having abandoned the truth and turned their back on the Spirit, apostates are simply being drawn toward wicked political beliefs, such as supporting gay marriage. See, for example, the attack on Seth Payne for his support of gay marriage, which is seen as the ultimate in "open hostility" toward the LDS church; never mind that many believing members hold identical beliefs on this same issue.

But perhaps the reason for such gravitation left has less to do with joining the great and spacious "politically correct" world than it does in the loss of hierarchy. Simply put, leaving the LDS church requires walking away from the hierarchy and rejecting its authority. Without leaders to constrain the debate and shape opinion, the apostate is left to ponder what he or she really believes, not just in politics but in everything else. And as we've seen, liberalism tends to be a more welcoming place for those who don't follow a hierarchy.

[_Aristotle Smith]

I think your analysis is interesting, but three data points weaken your correlation between hierarchy and conservatism.

1) Evangelical Christians tend to be very conservative, though not quite as lock step as Mormons. But, they are absolutely eschew religious hierarchies. In fact one of the least hierarchical group of evangelicals (the SBC) is probably the most ardently conservative politically.

2) The Catholic church is very hierarchical, though not quite as rigidly enforced as is the Mormon church. However, Catholics tend to be 50/50 when it comes to liberal/conservative politics.

3) The most hierarchical protestant church (Episcopalians/Anglicans) tend to be the least conservative politically.

I think Mormon conservatism largely comes down to the abortion issue. Beyond that, because Mormons already pay a 10% tax to the church, they tend to support any party that lessens their tax burden. That's traditionally been the Republicans. If a Democrat shows up that is pro-life and promises to lower taxes I think Mormons will vote for him/her.

[_zeezrom]

Beyond that, because Mormons already pay a 10% tax to the church, they tend to support any party that lessens their tax burden. That's traditionally been the Republicans. If a Democrat shows up that is pro-life and promises to lower taxes I think Mormons will vote for him/her.

I personally believe the tax issue is huge. Nobody seems to agree with me though.

[_Runtu]

I think your analysis is interesting, but three data points weaken your correlation between hierarchy and conservatism.

1) Evangelical Christians tend to be very conservative, though not quite as lock step as Mormons. But, they are absolutely eschew religious hierarchies. In fact one of the least hierarchical group of evangelicals (the SBC) is probably the most ardently conservative politically.

I agree somewhat. From what I've seen of Evangelicals, there's a sort of "caudillismo" going on in that, although formal hierarchies are eschewed, people tend to gravitate toward particular leaders, and there is very much a mediated access to such leadership. So, in my limited experience, there's less of a formal hierarchy but there is that top-down structure anyway.

2) The Catholic church is very hierarchical, though not quite as rigidly enforced as is the Mormon church. However, Catholics tend to be 50/50 when it comes to liberal/conservative politics.

My understanding is that Catholics who actively participate tend to be quite conservative, while those who don't participate actively tend to be on the liberal side. I could be wrong.

3) The most hierarchical protestant church (Episcopalians/Anglicans) tend to be the least conservative politically.

True enough, but I would suggest that the function of the hierarchy is different than within the LDS church and is far less intrusive into personal issues than is the LDS priesthood.

I think Mormon conservatism largely comes down to the abortion issue. Beyond that, because Mormons already pay a 10% tax to the church, they tend to support any party that lessens their tax burden. That's traditionally been the Republicans. If a Democrat shows up that is pro-life and promises to lower taxes I think Mormons will vote for him/her.

I've always thought that the church's 19th century dispute with the feds made Mormons more distrustful of strong government, which in practical terms means they tend to be more for limited-government conservatism.

I'm certainly not suggesting that there is one sole reason for apostates moving left, but this makes sense to me.

[_Nimrod]

Hey, Runtu,

I agree that there seems to be a noticeable correlation between LDS apostasy and liberal political views. I am sure that there are at least a dozen viable theses for this correlation. I think the one that you posit merits further investigation and analysis.

I am an LDS apostate. In the decade after the advent of my apostasy, I gradually shifted politically from Republican to libertarian. Since then, I've gone from libertarian to politically apathetic. I strive to be insular from all things political; to be left with nothing but the golden rule.

My own subjective experience is certainly one where I was eschewing hierarchal power. It began with realizations about LDS Inc and its illustrious history, and the doubting that began there led to my developing a more critical eye towards other institutions as well.

So my experience in rejecting LDS Inc and then right-wing politics has a connection like you posit.

One other note. Prior to talk radio coming into its own, then more than just CNN as a 24/7 cable news channel, and then the internet, in a very hierarchal way the agenda of major newspapers and national television news was controlled by those politically middle leaning left. As the new media developed, I think that such was first seized upon by the conservatives, but that taken as a whole, there is a balance today. I think leftists like the blogosphere, while conservatives like the moderated talk radio better--a point you made.

[_bcspace]

Yesterday I was reading an analysis of why liberals have made better use of the Internet as a political tool than have conservatives.

I don't see that as necessarily true. What is the evidence for this?

If this is true (and the Harvard study suggests it is), it's no wonder that political discussion on the web skews left, as the Internet is tailor-made for a more anarchic style of debate and activism. And, though the article doesn't mention talk radio, it's easy to see that a mediated talk show, such as Rush Limbaugh or Glenn Beck, provides "commanding leadership" and maintains orderly speech and practices.

These talkers are alive on the internet also.

Thus, liberals tend to be more comfortable with activism, such as joining public demonstrations or boycotts, whereas conservatives generally work within established political structures. I think, for example, of my parents, who are deeply committed conservatives and Latter-day Saints. They had a Prop 8 sign in their yard, and they have donated generously to conservative candidates. However, they would never dream of demonstrating; my mother once reacted in horror when my brother suggested that, given the right cause, he would take to the streets. (Obviously, with the advent of the Tea Party movement, conservative activism is changing.)

I think you're right on public demonstrations. Conservatives tend to abhor mob rule. But the internet, which is machine based, lends itself to a high degree of organization so I don't think there is anything to a chaotic or mob-like internet prevent conservatives from using I successfully and I think they have.

Ironically, the politics of the left lead us into becomming a set of highly organized grey little ant-like conforming communists, whereas conservatism tends to have the opposite effect as it promotes freedom and independence of action and thought. The left only exists because of conservative values by the way.

But the link between Mormonism and, say, laissez-faire capitalism seems less clear.

I think that's the fly in the ointment. Conservative are not necessarily drawn to hierarchy.

Some people around here have mentioned that people tend to move left in their politics upon leaving the LDS church, and though I don't have any data to support that belief, that's true for at least some people I know.

I don't have any data either, just personal experience. But I think it depends on what they move to. If they move to EVism, for example, they will likely remain conservative. But if they go atheist or agnostic or Protestant or Catholic, they tend to go liberal or ambivalent in my experience. I do know a few that have remained conservative, but not many.

The default assumption from some people is that, having abandoned the truth and turned their back on the Spirit, apostates are simply being drawn toward wicked political beliefs, such as supporting gay marriage. See, for example, the attack on Seth Payne for his support of gay marriage, which is seen as the ultimate in "open hostility" toward the LDS church; never mind that many believing members hold identical beliefs on this same issue.

It's a logical assumption.

But perhaps the reason for such gravitation left has less to do with joining the great and spacious "politically correct" world than it does in the loss of hierarchy. Simply put, leaving the LDS church requires walking away from the hierarchy and rejecting its authority.

The problem with that is liberalism requires authority and conformity. It's a more ant-like and less immediately detectable hierarchy sometimes.

Without leaders to constrain the debate and shape opinion, the apostate is left to ponder what he or she really believes, not just in politics but in everything else. And as we've seen, liberalism tends to be a more welcoming place for those who don't follow a hierarchy.

Only the hierachy they happen to disagree with. Of course they'd be welcomed by others with like views.

[_MCB]

My understanding is that Catholics who actively participate tend to be quite conservative, while those who don't participate actively tend to be on the liberal side. I could be wrong.

<Frowning-- thinking hard on this>

I think many Catholics toss out the liberal- conservative dichotomy, and go with conscience. The abortion issue, for example. Some Catholics believe that abortion is the most serious issue in American society today. So, they tend to vote Republican. Others say education, medical care, etc are the most important issues. So they tend to vote Democrat.

A few others, badly burned by radical Mormons, see the Republican party as a potential tool of the LDS, and RUN to the Democrats.

I think the Republican Catholics are more vocal. Democratic Catholics tend to be quiter, preferring to volunteer for social service organizations.

In sum, it is a matter of conscience, rather than political stereotypes. It is a tough choice, except for the badly burned.

Just thinking. I might be wrong.

[_bcspace]

A few others, badly burned by radical Mormons, see the Republican party as a potential tool of the LDS, and RUN to the Democrats

I think what usually happens here is they run from the logical conclusion of practicing LDS doctrine, which isn't necessarily Republican, but it is in all ways conservative and antiDemocrat (currently) and antiLiberal.

[_Runtu]

I think what usually happens here is they run from the logical conclusion of practicing LDS doctrine, which isn't necessarily Republican, but it is in all ways conservative and antiDemocrat (currently) and antiLiberal.

By your logic, then, I should be a liberal Democrat. Maybe I'm a wolf in conservative's clothing. lol

[_bcspace]

I think what usually happens here is they run from the logical conclusion of practicing LDS doctrine, which isn't necessarily Republican, but it is in all ways conservative and antiDemocrat (currently) and antiLiberal.

By your logic, then, I should be a liberal Democrat. Maybe I'm a wolf in conservative's clothing. lol

Maybe you are. But that's not my logic at all. It's simply what usually seems to happen in my experience. I have seen exceptions as I noted before.