8-10 main reasons LDS not true?

[_Joseph]

I am not looking for a joke list but a real one of the main 8-10 reasons for The Church not being true. I read many on here with discussions that get pretty convoluted.

Anyone have a basic list that puts down in writing the most telling arguments against The Church and its claims for 'Truth' and the eternal repository of all that is good?

Would like to have something like this in short form so I can print it up. Something like a small card or similar to hand to those who ask about it. These are mainly folks 'in the church' or very familiar with it already. Those with some knowledge of it mainly from LDS teachers and membership, either their own or close friends and relatives.

[_Some Schmo]

1) There's no evidence for its supernatural claims
2) Joe Smith was a con man
3) The church claims to be christian but acts anything but.
4) ...

Sorry, but everything beyond those three things make thinking about others a waste of time for me.

[Guest]

OK, I'll bite. Off the top of my head:

1. By far and away the number one proof...The Book of Abraham "translation."
2. Joseph Smith's sexual appetite (Polygamy, polyandry, child brides, friend's wives, etc.)
3. Book of Mormon problems...this is a LONG list.
4. Racism & homophobia in the church.
5. Uninspired CORPORATE/LAWYER/MONEY-GRUBBING Church culture (Missionary program run as a sales dept, etc.)
6. The lost 116 pages story! Oh yeah...we had a second set of plates all along!!
7. Mark Hoffman scandal...with GBH running a cloak & dagger operation to cover the church.
8. Mainstreaming the church...with the "whitewash" of real church doctrines...outright lying about true church history.
9. The basic BS of apologetics...the existence of DCP alone shows there are problems. GBH lying on Larry King.
10. Temple worship is focused on the dead. It is a weird variant of ancestor worship. It is also racist...primarily only rich, white Europeans kept written genealogies capable of being data-mined for temple "worship." What about the billions of Indians, Chinese, and Africans that have lived in the past? The church doesn't give a crap about them because they're not "white and delightsome." Here's how it normally goes, "...having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you, for and in behalf of OLAF ANDERS INGERSON, who is dead, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, Amen.’"

[_MCB]

You mean, I have written 550 pages when three sentences will do? What a crushing blow. <grin>

[_Nimrod]

Here are some to consider:

1-JS's glass-looking for hire with the same stones later used to translate Book of Mormon
2-JS's polygamy with other men's wives and 14 year old daughters, all the while denying it
3-BoAbr: Where's "Shulem" in Facsimile No. 3, the Egyptian characters in left hand column of the KEP, the papyri was really the Book of the Dead
4-Kinderhook plates and Zelph bones
5-Formation of Council of 50 theocracy, "King of the World", denying it and destroying the Nauvoo Expositor for printing the truth
6-Anachronisms in the Book of Mormon, and problems with modern "Lamanites" positions
7-Mountain Meadows Massacre and Blood Atonemen
8-The inexplicable prohibition of priesthood and temple ordinances for those of African descent until June 1978
9-LDS Inc paying big $$ to Hoffman for the Salamander Letters, and Oaks' dodge and weave on that topic
10-GBH dis'ing the King Follett Doctrine and claiming polygamy was never doctrine
11-Receding LDS doctrine (and general slipperiness of 'doctrine') to give room to Mo apologists to concoct explanations, like the LGT.

[_Willy Law]

First Vision
1. Not mentioned in 1st Church History written by Joseph in 1835
2. Changes to the Book of Mormon text and Book of Commandment texts as his first vision account change.
3. Account changed dramatically over time. Changes included;
-The date / his age - from 1823 (age 16), to 1821 (age 15), to 1820 (age 14)
-The reason or motive for seeking divine help - from no motive (a spirit appears with the news of gold plates), Bible reading and conviction of sins, a revival, a desire to know if God exists.
-Who appears to him - a spirit, an angel, two angels, Jesus, many angels, the Father and the Son
4. In the first History of the Church written by Oliver Cowdery and Joseph in 1835, Joseph states that he prayed in 1823 to find out for sure "the all important information, if a Supreme being did exist.” Why would he need this information if he saw a Supreme being in 1820?
5. Early church leaders did not talk about the first vision when asked how the church was started and it was not taught to members or converts until 1890, 70 years after the fact.

Book of Mormon
1. A peep stone Joseph used to find treasure (never successfully) was used for translation, not Urim and Thummim. Peep stone was placed in a hat and Joseph would peer into hat. Plates were often not even in the house during translation.

2. After several expeditions not a single archeological find supporting the Book of Mormon has been found. Items mentioned in Book of Mormon that were not known to the Americas at that time.

3. Nearly 30% of text taken directly from KJV. Some of which had not even been written at the time Book of Mormon. Other passages used have since been shown to be incorrectly translated by KJV scholars.

4. Nearly 4,000 changes have been made to the Book of Mormon from it’s original text.

5. Iron rod story is almost word for word taken from a dream Joseph’s father had when he was 5 years old. According to Joseph’s mother his father recounted the story to his children throughout their childhood.


Priesthood
1. Not a single account of angelic or resurrected beings performing ordinations can be found in any written documents until 1835.

2. According to both Lucy Smith and David Whitmer, Joseph and Oliver baptized each other after receiving instruction from peep stone.

3. According to Joseph’s own writing Joseph was compelled by the spirit to confirm Oliver an Elder and vice versa in the attic of the Whitmer house in June 1829. The confirmation took place on April 6, 1830 at the first church meeting. No mention of Peter, James and John is given.

4. Many retroactive changes have been made to church records and D&C to make a logical time line. Example D&C 68:15. Melchizedek Priesthood was added to the verse 4 years later.

5. In journals and writings of early converts and leaders they often recount the confirmation of the Melchizedek priesthood as mentioned in #3. Joseph and Oliver do not mention any angelic ordination for at least 4 years and probably more than 6 years later. One convert claims to have heard the confirmation story told by Joseph more than 20 times and never heard him mention any angelic ordination. The same convert says he also never heard either Joseph or Oliver mention being baptized by John the Baptist.

Temple
1. Temple of Solomon was used for animal sacrifice not for an endowment like ceremony, baptisms for the dead or marriage.

2. Joseph joined the Mason’s 6 weeks before introducing the endowment. Initial oaths, hand shake, penalties and initiations were virtually identical to Mason rituals.

3. Early church leaders, including Joseph, believed the Masonic rituals had roots dating back to the temple of Solomon. They referred to the temple endowment as “celestial masonry.” It is now known that the Masonic ritual dates only to the 1600 or 1700’s.

4. The endowment and garments were first introduced on May 4, 1842 to the quorum of the anointed when Joseph introduced them to polygamy. The members of the quorum of the anointed were given the death oath penalties and garments as a way of keeping polygamy secret. This was done outside of the temple since the temple was not completed at this point. Seems very likely that both the endowment and garment were introduced only to keep polygamy a secret.

5. All references of Elijah or temple work in the Moroni angelic appearance were added much later, probably as late as 1842.

Polygamy
1. Section 132 does not contain the words of Jesus Christ. Instead they are the words of Joseph trying to manipulate and threaten his wife into accepting polygamy.

2. Joseph married at least 33 (some scholars guess the number is closer to 60) women of which 11 were already married to other men. Some of the men were good, upstanding members of the church, some of which Joseph had sent on far a way missions. He also married girls as young as 14.

3. Joseph began practicing polygamy as early as 1833 before any sealing authority was given.

4. Early prophets taught that polygamy was not only doctrinal, but required for salvation.

5. After receiving the all important sealing power from Elijah in 1836 Joseph did not run straight away to have himself sealed to his beloved Emma. Instead he used the sealing power to marry some 28 other women before using the power to seal himself to Emma. Emma was only allowed to partake of the sealing “blessing” if she accepted polygamy and Joseph’s other wives (see section 132).

6. We can thank polygamy for the following:
Garments
Endowment
Closing temple marriage to non members
Castrations in early Utah
Mental anguish of women involved (as well as husbands of polyandry wives)



Succession
1. Joseph laid the foundation for, blessed, ordained or designated the following people as successors:
Hyrum Smith
David Whitmer
Oliver Cowdery
Joseph Smith III
David Hyrum Smith
Samual Smith
Sidney Rigdon
Willam Smith
Lyman Wight
Willam Marks
James J. Strang
Alpheus Cutler
Quorum of the 12 Apostles.

2. Emma wanted nothing to do with Brigham or the Church and wanted her children to have nothing to do with religion. They only joined the RLDS church years later.

3. I am fairly confident that one of Brigham associates poisoned Samuel Smith.

4. The mantle of Joseph falling to Brigham and people saying that Brigham appeared as and had the voice of Joseph were not written until years later.

5. More than half the members of the church did not follow Brigham after Joseph’s death.



Blacks and the Priesthood
1. Joseph Smith gave the priesthood to black people before his death.

2. Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff and nearly all other early church leaders were raging racists. There are too many quotes to list even an example. There are many quotes of church leaders (some as late as the 70’s) quoted as saying that blacks will never be allowed to hold the priesthood.

3. Slaves were bought and sold in the Utah territory with the approval of Brigham. When asked about slavery by the NY Times Brigham said “We consider it of divine institution, and not to be abolished until the curse pronounced on Ham shall have been removed from his descendants”

4. There is no “divine intervention” leading to the 1978 ban being lifted. The church gave into several outside political pressures. I believe the ban would have been lifted much sooner if members were not terrified of questioning the prophet.

5. Current church leaders now act as if racism never occurred in the LDS church. Ex.
“How can any man holding the Melchizedek Priesthood arrogantly assume that he is eligible for the priesthood whereas another who lives a righteous life but whose skin is of a different color is ineligible?”
The Need for Greater Kindness
April 2006 Priesthood Session
President Gordon B. Hinckley

[_Aristotle Smith]

For me (if I remember correctly) it went in this order. This is a combination of the power of the argument and the temporal sequence in which it happened for me.

#1 The Book of Abraham: I was able to "shelve" every issue except this one. In terms of effect on Mormon theology, losing the Book of Abraham is not a big deal. However, it made me realized that it was possible that Joseph's "translations" were not reliable. It's hard to disprove a faith claim, but the Book of Abraham is as close to a slam dunk as you can get.

#2 Book of Mormon Anachronisms: Once I realized the the Book of Abraham was not a translation, the Book of Mormon anachronisms suddenly made sense. They are there because the Book of Mormon is also not a translation. The Book of Mormon simply does not read like a book that 1) originated in the Ancient Near East and 2) was lived out in ancient America.

#3 Polygamy: Learning about how polygamy really worked was a big blow to thinking that it was a divine principle. Even TBMs can't deal with the realities of polygamy and try and ignore it as much as possible.

#4 Blacks and the Priesthood: First, Joseph Smith ordains blacks. Then Brigham Young takes it away. Then Spencer Kimball gives it back. It's pretty obvious that the motivation here was racism, not some directive from God. But, if prophets can't get that one right, how reliable as prophets are they?

#5 First Vision accounts: They conflict in big ways. The theology behind the accounts tends to evolve with the rest of Mormon theology. Looks like a case of making it up as you go along.

#6 Priesthood Authority: Internet Mormons put all their arguments for the true church on authority arguments. In other words the prophets can get everything wrong, but they are still the leaders of the church because they have the authority to lead the church, confer authority, and manage the ordinances. If that's the case then the concept of authority and the presence of said authority better be crystal clear from the beginning. Unfortunately, this is not the case.

#7 Lies, Lies, Lies: The institutional church simply cannot be honest with itself or with others about its history or its doctrines. The church insists on teaching its history (every four years in seminary and SS) but refuses to do so accurately.

#8 Lack of redeeming features of Mormon doctrine: In one of my last gasps at NOM-hood I tried to list the doctrines of the church that are 1) Unique to Mormonism and 2) Untainted by the ugliness of Mormon church history. The list was blank. As just one example, every Mormon likes to cite eternal families as the one truly shining example of unique Mormon doctrine. The problem is that eternal families are just a small part of the doctrine of polygamy.

#9 Lack of financial transparency

[_Tchild]

I need go no further than the falsifiable Mormon cosmology of 1) a first man; Adam, living in a paradisicial glory, 2) no death in the world, who later "fell" introducing 3) death and sin.

Then you take a baby step more to realize the literal teaching of a worldwide flood is more "proof" of a falsifiable cosmology and doctrine interwoven with literal teachings.

Lastly, a little understanding of evolution and you KNOW that God is not a mammillian creature resembling humans (anthropormophism) in a glorified and resurrected skin and bone suit.

Just start there, mix and shake, and Mormonism crashes like Hugh Hefner's Spruce Goose.

[_just me]

1) Joseph Smith told lies. These lies can be found in friendly sources such as the History of the Church.

That right there is a HUGE issue. If the prophet of the restoration was a proven liar then you can't trust anything he produced or said. :/

2) After the death of Joseph Smith the people who followed BY were rejected by God per D&C 124. The promise was that they would be able to stay in Nauvoo if they obeyed the Lord.

D&C 124:45 And if my people will hearken unto my voice, and unto the voice of my aservants whom I have appointed to lead my people, behold, verily I say unto you, they shall not be moved out of their place.

That right there is pretty damning for the Brighamites.

3) The Nauvoo temple was never completed. The modern church tells the members that it was. The source for this in the journals of Brigham Young. Again, the D&C says the saints will be rejected if they don't complete it within a set timeframe.

4) Polygamy. It is pretty common for a cult leader to use his power to have sex with whomever he wants in the cult. If God were to threaten to kill someone for exercising their agency then that makes him no different from the devil in Mormon theology (in my opinion).

5) Literal belief in things in the Bible/Book of Mormon/DC that have been disproven by archeaology. The earth is way more than 6000 years old--people before Adam, etc.

6) The race issue. PH ban. Dark skin being a sign of wickedness.

7) The Proclamation that claims sex/gender is eternal. With intersex people and animals that spontaniously change from one to the other I think this doctrine is certainly false. I'll add in here the treatment and view of homosexuals. The doctrine that you must be married to attain the highest Celestial Glory.

8) Book of Abraham and "inspired" version of the Bible and changes made to the Book of Mormon

9) The Book of Mormon being the "fulness of the Gospel" but says nothing of many modern doctrines and ordinances.

10) The lack of financial transparency. The MALL. The doctrine of tithing that demands 10% from even the poor among us.

[_bcspace]

These objections are usually easy to answer well. The problem is one of a moving target as actual and valid evidence for these objections are usually hard to come by or they are out of context. Therefore, they are in the realm of propaganda and yellow journalism.