DiscussMormonism.com

MsJack wrote:I don't support rights for polygamy because I think it's malum in se.

Oh, but homosexuality isn't inherently evil? Not in 2010, anyway.

I guess this just means the time has come (for you) to advance on one front but not another. I guess it takes us back to Asbestosman's opening post: why has the time come for homosexual rights? Why hasn't it come for polygamy?

Ms. Jack,

Thus is the problem. We cannot be free or make significant strides in human rights until we concede that each of us own ourselves.

For myself, I doubt humanity will ever learn from its own poor decisions and think we will languish until we are extinct.

The Dude wrote:

MsJack wrote:I don't support rights for polygamy because I think it's malum in se.

Oh, but homosexuality isn't inherently evil? Not in 2010, anyway.

I guess this just means the time has come (for you) to advance on one front but not another. I guess it takes us back to Asbestosman's opening post: why has the time come for homosexual rights? Why hasn't it come for polygamy?

Since malum in se is a subjective term, one COULD argue homosexuality should be illegal. Why not allow individuals live as they wish?

The Dude, GP, let me ask you a question:

Should people in incestuous relationships be allowed to legally marry? Why or why not?

I remember my Grandma, who was one of the kindest ladies ever, would look at disgust at the TV and say, "Those damn niggers are taking over the television!!!"

I was appalled!!

What is funny to me is how often I hear young people around here say, "Those faggots have taken over Hollywood! It disgusts me!!"

I am certain that 50 years from now when they say that to their grandchildren, they will be equally appalled as I was towards my Grandma.

MsJack wrote:The Dude, GP, let me ask you a question:

Should people in incestuous relationships be allowed to legally marry? Why or why not?

I say yes.

I believe the only limits we should put on who can marry would be based on ability to make a rational decision. A 14 year old should not be allowed to marry because they are not mature enough to make this kind of decision.

An adult couple should be able to marry whoever the hell they want.

MsJack wrote:The Dude, GP, let me ask you a question:

Should people in incestuous relationships be allowed to legally marry? Why or why not?

First of all, I'm not saying you can't draw the line somewhere. You don't even have to justify the line to me. I'm just saying the line is arbitrary and negotiable and there may come a time when people look back on your line and call it unenlightened.

Should incestuous relationships be allowed to legally marry? I guess you mean this to be something that is so outrageous that it shouldn't even be discussed, thereby showing that even I have an arbitrary line. But I would consider it. So my answer is "maybe".

I'm not saying I don't have an arbitrary line somewhere, but incestuous marriage between fully consenting adults isn't it.

Ms. Jack,

My question would be, who am I to control them? Yes, they should be allowed to do anything they wish as long as it does not harm someone else. (I would argue againt state recognized marriage generally)

Now, I think it's wrong and will do my best to stop them using peaceful means.

I AM NOT IN FAVOR OF THE PRACTICE, BUT I DO NOT OWN THEM......

As one old fart said in a Ward we visited a few years back. It is all the fault of The Beatnicks, Elvis Presley and The Beatles!

Trouble is, this nut believed it and so did some in that ward.

Scottie, the Dude, Gadianton Plumber,

Thank you for answering my question.

My point is not that some things are so outrageous that we have to simply draw a line and not discuss it. Personally, I'm against incest, not because it's too outrageous to be discussed---I'm against it for two main reasons, the first being because I believe it inevitably fosters coercive and abusive relationships. The vast majority of incestuous relationships out there are not freely-chosen unions between consenting adults, they're coercive unions between an older parent, sibling, aunt or uncle and a younger child, sibling, niece or nephew. If incest were offered the endorsement of the state through legalized marriage, I think these coercive and abusive relationships with minors would increase---and that, as soon as the minor turned 18, the older partner would attempt to solidify and legitimatize the union through marriage. Yes, the 18 year-old is now a consenting adult, but that doesn't mean they've developed the critical thinking capacities that are necessary to challenge the longstanding influence of the older partner.

I also have quality of human life concerns with incest because inbreeding dramatically increases the risk of congenital birth defects. I don't believe the state should sanction a system that is guaranteed to lead to a decrease in the quality of human life. Obviously this point is not a concern for polygamy.

Can I technically shack up with my 24 year-old brother and have a loving, consensual relationship with him? Yes. Can I avoid having children with him so that I'm not harming the quality of human life? Yes. But a relationship like that would be the exception where incest is concerned, not the rule.

My philosophy being, laws need to balance concern for human freedom with concerns for the welfare of the community at large.

In my book, polygamy is closer to being a benign system than incest ever will be, but it still has a long way to go. Sure, some people can practice it as a form of free and consenting relationship between adults, but that isn't the norm. I see too many abusive, manipulative, hyper-patriarchal relationships coming out of polygamous communities to feel safe about sanctioning it.

Some people certainly try to make similar arguments against gay marriage, arguing that homosexuality inevitably fosters wrong-doing. I simply think that these arguments suck. I'm not like most of the other pro-gay-marriage people on this forum; I identify as a Republican and a conservative. I voted for Bush in 2000, Bush in 2004 and McCain in 2008, and I'm not ashamed of that. I listen to the conservative think-tanks and the Republican talking heads, and four+ years after voting against gay marriage in Utah back in 2004, I finally decided that "conservative" arguments against legalization of gay marriage are fail. I heard a lot more from them about how much God doesn't like gay marriage (which may be true, but irrelevant in a country based on separation of church and state) than I did rational reasons for how it will harm the community. I don't have the concerns with gay marriage inevitably fostering abusive and manipulative relationships that I have with polygamy and incest.

I hope that I'm showing here that I'm not simply drawing arbitrary lines based on my own revulsion and disgust.

Maybe I'm wrong and Scottie is right and someday I'll be snarling to my grandchildren about how the incesters are taking over Hollywood, and they'll stare at me in horror and disgust at my close-mindedness.

We'll see.