For ttribe re 1832 & 38 Anthon visit accounts

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_Roger
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For ttribe re 1832 & 38 Anthon visit accounts

Post by _Roger »

tribe:

In our last episode you were apparently tentatively conceding the following:

Sorry, I'm following you now. Too many distractions last night. Honestly, as I sit here, I'd need to go back and look into it. Based on what you've presented here, there appears to be a difference in the two accounts.


Since I don't want to attempt to recreate everything from the other thread, here is a link back to it:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13709&p=339214#p339214

Since you're being so candid and I'm apparently broadsiding you with this, let me acknowledge at this point that the typical way apologists have disposed of this issue is to focus on what also appears to be a contradiction in Anthon's accounts. I believe I have a rational response to that. But whether Anthon's accounts are contradictory or not should not effect whether Smith's accounts contradict one another.

Here is Joseph's 1832 account:

...the Lord had shown [Harris]
that he must go to new York City

with some of the characters so we
proceeded to coppy some
of them and he took his Journy to
the Eastern

Cittys and to the Learned saying read
this I pray thee
and the learned said I cannot but if
he wo-
=uld bring the blates they would
read it but
the Lord had forbid it and he
returned to me

and gave them to me to translate and I
said I said
cannot for I am not learned but the
Lord
had prepared specticke spectacles
for to read
the Book therefore I commenced
translating the char-
-acters and thus the Propicy of
Isiaah was fulfilled which
is writen in the 29 chapter concern-
ing the book...


And here is Joseph's 1838 account (allegedly) quoting Martin Harris firsthand:

64 I went to the city of New York, and presented the characters which had been translated, with the translation thereof, to Professor Charles Anthon, a gentleman celebrated for his literary attainments. Professor Anthon stated that the translation was correct, more so than any he had before seen translated from the Egyptian. I then showed him those which were not yet translated, and he said that they were Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic; and he said they were true characters. He gave me a certificate, certifying to the people of Palmyra that they were true characters, and that the translation of such of them as had been translated was also correct. I took the certificate and put it into my pocket, and was just leaving the house, when Mr. Anthon called me back, and asked me how the young man found out that there were gold plates in the place where he found them. I answered that an angel of God had revealed it unto him. 65 He then said to me, 'Let me see that certificate.' I accordingly took it out of my pocket and gave it to him, when he took it and tore it to pieces, saying that there was no such thing now as ministering of angels, and that if I would bring the plates to him he would translate them. I informed him that part of the plates were sealed, and that I was forbidden to bring them. He replied, 'I cannot read a sealed book.' I left him and went to Dr. Mitchell, who sanctioned what Professor Anthon had said respecting both the characters and the translation.(Joseph Smith History 1:64–65).

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon ... transcript



The important elements of the conversation were:

1. In 1832 Smith says Harris took some copies of the characters "to the Learned saying read this I pray thee and the learned said I cannot but if he wo=uld bring the blates they would read it"

2. In 1838 Smith/Harris not only has Anthon reading the characters but pronouncing an alleged translation of them the best he'd ever seen from the Egyptian--which he very likely had never seen any translation from Egyptian in 1829 since Champollion had not yet published his ground breaking work in English. And he could not have seen a translation from "reformed Egyptian" since no modern human has ever seen even an example of reformed Egyptian other than Joseph Smith, Martin Harris and Charles Anthon. So what was there for Anthon to pronounce "correct"?

3. How is Isaiah 29 fulfilled?

All the best.
"...a pious lie, you know, has a great deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one."

- Sidney Rigdon, as quoted in the Quincy Whig, June 8, 1839, vol 2 #6.
_ttribe

Re: For ttribe re 1832 & 38 Anthon visit accounts

Post by _ttribe »

I'll try to get this in the next couple of days. I have some looming deadlines. Sorry and thanks for your understanding.
_Roger
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Re: For ttribe re 1832 & 38 Anthon visit accounts

Post by _Roger »

No problem. No rush. Hope all goes well with your deadlines. I know how that can be.

All the best.
"...a pious lie, you know, has a great deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one."

- Sidney Rigdon, as quoted in the Quincy Whig, June 8, 1839, vol 2 #6.
_jskains
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Re: For ttribe re 1832 & 38 Anthon visit accounts

Post by _jskains »

The first account is missing a discussion of Anthon altogether. Then second one describes the event, but seems there was some antics from Anthon. Again, why is the absence of the Anthon story a concern?

JMS
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition from Mediocre Minds - Albert Einstein
_Darth J
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Re: For ttribe re 1832 & 38 Anthon visit accounts

Post by _Darth J »

jskains wrote:The first account is missing a discussion of Anthon altogether. Then second one describes the event, but seems there was some antics from Anthon. Again, why is the absence of the Anthon story a concern?

JMS


Because the LDS Church has canonized this story.

Your failure to understand why this is an issue is consistent with internet defenders of the faith defending internet Mormonism, not chapel Mormonism, and thus being unfamiliar with the actual teachings of the LDS Church.
_Darth J
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Re: For ttribe re 1832 & 38 Anthon visit accounts

Post by _Darth J »

Here, I'll save our militant cafeteria Mormon friends the trouble of actually looking at what the scriptures say.

The Pearl of Great Price; Joseph Smith--History wrote:
64 “I went to the city of New York, and presented the characters which had been translated, with the translation thereof, to Professor Charles Anthon, a gentleman celebrated for his literary attainments. Professor Anthon stated that the translation was correct, more so than any he had before seen translated from the Egyptian. I then showed him those which were not yet translated, and he said that they were Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic; and he said they were true characters. He gave me a certificate, certifying to the people of Palmyra that they were true characters, and that the translation of such of them as had been translated was also correct. I took the certificate and put it into my pocket, and was just leaving the house, when Mr. Anthon called me back, and asked me how the young man found out that there were gold plates in the place where he found them. I answered that an angel of God had revealed it unto him.
65 “He then said to me, ‘Let me see that certificate.’ I accordingly took it out of my pocket and gave it to him, when he took it and tore it to pieces, saying that there was no such thing now as ministering of angels, and that if I would bring the plates to him he would translate them. I informed him that part of the plates were sealed, and that I was forbidden to bring them. He replied, ‘I cannot read a sealed book.’ I left him and went to Dr. Mitchell, who sanctioned what Professor Anthon had said respecting both the characters and the translation.”

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/65#65
_jskains
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Re: For ttribe re 1832 & 38 Anthon visit accounts

Post by _jskains »

Darth J wrote:
jskains wrote:The first account is missing a discussion of Anthon altogether. Then second one describes the event, but seems there was some antics from Anthon. Again, why is the absence of the Anthon story a concern?

JMS


Because the LDS Church has canonized this story.

Your failure to understand why this is an issue is consistent with internet defenders of the faith defending internet Mormonism, not chapel Mormonism, and thus being unfamiliar with the actual teachings of the LDS Church.


Uh, I know what is canonized. But lack of a story in some original telling does not make a false story. What if Joseph didn't get the entire story from Martin? What if he just didn't feel like telling the Martin portion?

Could you respond please without the extra snideness please? :)

JMS
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition from Mediocre Minds - Albert Einstein
_Darth J
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Re: For ttribe re 1832 & 38 Anthon visit accounts

Post by _Darth J »

jskains wrote:
Uh, I know what is canonized. But lack of a story in some original telling does not make a false story. What if Joseph didn't get the entire story from Martin? What if he just didn't feel like telling the Martin portion?


It isn't "lack of a story." It's an inconsistent story: inconsistent as to how the Isaiah prophecy is claimed to have been fulfilled. Remember, Joseph Smith had many ancient prophets foreseeing his personal role in restoring the gospel. Proofs of how biblical prophecies were fulfilled by Joseph Smith is not a trivial issue in Mormonism.

Additionally, significant details that are central to the final story being omitted in the original telling very strongly suggests embellishment and/or fabrication, and often there is little meaningful difference between the two. Yet the LDS Church has made this story part of the Standard Works, which makes it on par with the Bible and the Book of Mormon in authority.

Could you respond please without the extra snideness please? :)

JMS


Not really, no. Just the comment that you don't see the issue shows that you really aren't familiar with the LDS canon, because if you realized that the Anthon story is in the Pearl of Great Price, you'd immediately see why questions about its veracity are a problem for the Church. Many amateur apologists volunteer the observation that anyone who criticizes and/or loses faith in the LDS Church doesn't know what the Church teaches, and you are among the former.

It is a common article of faith among both internet and chapel Mormons that nobody could really be familiar with the teachings of the LDS Church and not believe them, when more often than not it is the believers who are not familiar with the actual teachings of the Church. Instead, they tend to have faith in either apologetic Mormonism or folk Mormonism.

You are the one who characterized pretty much everyone on this board as being motivated by "perpetual loathing" rather than an honest, rational disbelief in Mormonism. You've even turned on ttribe, who demonstrably knows more about the Church and presents much more compelling discussions about his faith than you do. So you've earned the extra snideness--both you personally and the groups of people I've called out--because I'm tired of this BS of people telling me that as a lifelong member of the Church who served a mission and was married in the temple, I don't know what the Church teaches.
_jskains
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Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:06 pm

Re: For ttribe re 1832 & 38 Anthon visit accounts

Post by _jskains »

Darth J wrote:
jskains wrote:
Uh, I know what is canonized. But lack of a story in some original telling does not make a false story. What if Joseph didn't get the entire story from Martin? What if he just didn't feel like telling the Martin portion?


It isn't "lack of a story." It's an inconsistent story: inconsistent as to how the Isaiah prophecy is claimed to have been fulfilled. Remember, Joseph Smith had many ancient prophets foreseeing his personal role in restoring the gospel. Proofs of how biblical prophecies were fulfilled by Joseph Smith is not a trivial issue in Mormonism.

Additionally, significant details that are central to the final story being omitted in the original telling very strongly suggests embellishment and/or fabrication, and often there is little meaningful difference between the two. Yet the LDS Church has made this story part of the Standard Works, which makes it on par with the Bible and the Book of Mormon in authority.

Could you respond please without the extra snideness please? :)

JMS


Not really, no. Just the comment that you don't see the issue shows that you really aren't familiar with the LDS canon, because if you realized that the Anthon story is in the Pearl of Great Price, you'd immediately see why questions about its veracity are a problem for the Church. Many amateur apologists volunteer the observation that anyone who criticizes and/or loses faith in the LDS Church doesn't know what the Church teaches, and you are among the former.

It is a common article of faith among both internet and chapel Mormons that nobody could really be familiar with the teachings of the LDS Church and not believe them, when more often than not it is the believers who are not familiar with the actual teachings of the Church. Instead, they tend to have faith in either apologetic Mormonism or folk Mormonism.

You are the one who characterized pretty much everyone on this board as being motivated by "perpetual loathing" rather than an honest, rational disbelief in Mormonism. You've even turned on ttribe, who demonstrably knows more about the Church and presents much more compelling discussions about his faith than you do. So you've earned the extra snideness--both you personally and the groups of people I've called out--because I'm tired of this b***s*** of people telling me that as a lifelong member of the Church who served a mission and was married in the temple, I don't know what the Church teaches.


*Yawn* Can you wake me when your tantrum is done?

Thanks,
JMS
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition from Mediocre Minds - Albert Einstein
_Joseph
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Re: For ttribe re 1832 & 38 Anthon visit accounts

Post by _Joseph »

"he said that they were Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic".

Notice he did not say they were reformed Egyptian, reformed Chaldaic, reformes Assriac, and reformed Arabic.

How could he know reformed from the real deal? He did not have a urim and thummim or a magic peepstone and a hat!

If no one could read Egyptian at that time how could this guy state Josephs 'translation' was correct?
"This is how INGORNAT these fools are!" - darricktevenson

Bow your head and mutter, what in hell am I doing here?

infaymos wrote: "Peterson is the defacto king ping of the Mormon Apologetic world."
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