Engaging Mormon Apologetics

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_mfbukowski
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Re: Engaging Mormon Apologetics

Post by _mfbukowski »

MrStakhanovite wrote:mfbukowski,

Do you see any inconsistency between these two statements?


(1) Reality exists independently of our representations of it.

(2) All representations of reality are made relative to some more or less arbitrarily selected set of concepts.


Representations: Language, Art, Science, Maps, etc, etc


I suppose I don't see an inconsistency per se, but my understanding of the meaning of these statements I think differs far from yours.

The explanation will be very terse and I will be glad to elaborate if you like, but I think you will "get" it as is.

For me, "reality" is precisely what we experience, as conditioned by language etc. Language is in a sense already "reality" or part of it, since we can experience virtually nothing without language.

I am "typing on a computer"- THAT is reality. But seeing the square screen and hitting the letters and knowing that they create words that in a context create meaning you will understand, and the fact that it is something called a "computer"- all that enters into the experience of "reality" and no one element of that experience can be divorced from the others without distorting what the "experience"-- or what the "reality" is.

I cannot know anything except as I experience it- how humans experience it. And all I CAN know of reality is what humans experience. There is no point postulating anything external to what we can experience because we can only know about it through experience, and you cannot divorce experience from language, concepts etc. I would say that what some call "abstracta" are included in reality- and so there is no point in postulating any separate existence for them over and above "reality".

So calling language a "representation" of reality or saying a concept is a representation of reality is to me, to create an unnecessary dichotomy between experience and "reality".

So it is hard for me to evaluate your statements.

Certainly in the case of pictures and maps, these devices represent or capture certain conceptual aspects of reality or experience, and these representations serve specific purposes as tools. One cannot smell the flowers in the garden on a map of the garden, or listen to grandma's voice from a still photo, but both serve specific functions, namely allowing one to find the garden from another location, or remembering how grandma's face looked.

So if those are consistent with what you mean by your second statement, then I would say that experience exists independently of a photograph of the experience- that seems blatantly clear. But if you took the photograph of the experience of "grandma" with the specific purpose of remembering the look of her face, I am not sure if that is "relative to some more or less arbitrarily selected set of concepts" or not in your statement.

So we live in two quite different worlds, and communication requires a bit of effort.
_mfbukowski
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Re: Engaging Mormon Apologetics

Post by _mfbukowski »

MrStakhanovite wrote:[

Yes. Really it is just an issue of taxonomy. .....

This gives me an idea though.......


I have noticed you are a fan of taxonomy. I notice a lot of your posts contain a lot of "isms".

Just be cautious, Pluto is no longer a planet.

I have a feeling I am about to be put in a box. I'll bite. It could be fun.
_MrStakhanovite
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Re: Engaging Mormon Apologetics

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

mfbukowski,

I'm just asking some questions to see where you stand on things, so I'm not throwing questions out there trying to find a "wrong" answer and jump on that. Do you agree with this satement and why or why not:


The Universe exists independently of our Representations* of it. The consequence of this is that if there never had been any Representations the vast majoroty of the Universe would remain unaffected and still exist almost exactly as it does now.


*Representations: Language, Art, Science, Maps and now include Perceptions, Thoughts, and Belief

I'm pretty sure you answered this with:

mfbukowski wrote:For me, "reality" is precisely what we experience, as conditioned by language etc. Language is in a sense already "reality" or part of it, since we can experience virtually nothing without language.


But I'd like to make sure.
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Re: Engaging Mormon Apologetics

Post by _mfbukowski »

MrStakhanovite wrote:
The Universe exists independently of our Representations* of it. The consequence of this is that if there never had been any Representations the vast majoroty of the Universe would remain unaffected and still exist almost exactly as it does now.


I see this statement as about the logical equivalent of a quote from Lord of the Rings about the location of Bilbo's house.

I understand the words, but the idea this has anything to do with experienceable "reality" is just silly. It is imaginary.

It is totally unknowable in principle- it is metaphysics, poetry, a fanciful statement that could never be confirmed.

It is like some religious statements- it could be true or false, but one must take it on faith if one wants to believe it at all.

It cannot be confirmed by experience- not mine, not human collective experience- no one's experience could possibly provide evidence for it.

Does that help?
_MrStakhanovite
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Re: Engaging Mormon Apologetics

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

mfbukowski wrote:Does that help?


It does. This is now how I understand you

1. All we have access to in perception are the contents of our own experiences.

2. The only epistemic basis we can have for claims about the external world are our perceptual experiences.

3. The only reality we can meaningfully speak of is the reality of perceptual experiences.

Am I good so far?
_mfbukowski
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Re: Engaging Mormon Apologetics

Post by _mfbukowski »

MrStakhanovite wrote:
mfbukowski wrote:Does that help?


It does. This is now how I understand you

1. All we have access to in perception are the contents of our own experiences.

2. The only epistemic basis we can have for claims about the external world are our perceptual experiences.

3. The only reality we can meaningfully speak of is the reality of perceptual experiences.

Am I good so far?

No because that would make me a solipsist.

We also can know about what other humans have experienced and communicated to us- human collective experience. This is often called "science".

I really do believe Antarctica exists, though I have never been there. I read about it in National Geographic.

But in your statement- no human can experience a "reality" OUTSIDE of human experience, and of course "human experience" includes things observed through microscopes, etc- devices which "amplify" our ability to experience things we cannot see- radio waves etc.

But still we cannot experience any "reality" beyond what we (collectively) can experience.

So my experience and your experience and everyone else's experience as expressed in culture and language EQUALS "reality".
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Re: Engaging Mormon Apologetics

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

mfbukowski wrote:No because that would make me a solipsist.


LOL! I had meant 'we' as the entire collection of humanity, so I think we are on the same page and I had presummed everything you stated about science and the total aggregate of experince ss reality. So with that caveat in mind, was I still pretty much getting you?

Also, is everything in the universe mind dependent? And if so, are the only properties an item, that's only being perceived by you and I, has is what is being dierectly perceived by us?
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Re: Engaging Mormon Apologetics

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

Also can you explain the connection between our perceptual experinces and the physical objects of perception? Does, "I see the table" imply that, "I am having a certian sort of visual experince."
_mfbukowski
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Re: Engaging Mormon Apologetics

Post by _mfbukowski »

MrStakhanovite wrote:Also, is everything in the universe mind dependent? And if so, are the only properties an item, that's only being perceived by you and I, has is what is being dierectly perceived by us?


Mind dependent? Depends on what that means- I think the answer is that that is unknowable. Could the answer be tested somehow to make it experienceable?

I don't know how you are defining "properties"- sounds like you are trying to make a class of things called "properties" like neoplatonic "accidents" or something-

Those are just linguistic descriptions- adjectives are not things- "blue" is not a thing or a property it is a color.
_mfbukowski
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Re: Engaging Mormon Apologetics

Post by _mfbukowski »

MrStakhanovite wrote:Also can you explain the connection between our perceptual experinces and the physical objects of perception? Does, "I see the table" imply that, "I am having a certian sort of visual experince."


I suppose it is necessary to see a table in order to see a table- yes it is an experience.

I avoid abstractions because it confuses ordinary language and creates imaginary categories which are irrelevant to experience
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