Why did the Church keep the KEP hidden?

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_bcspace
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Re: Why did the Church keep the KEP hidden?

Post by _bcspace »

At your nearby community college, there might be a course entitled Reading Comprehension 101 this fall quarter. Might I suggest you enroll.


Didn't seem to help you much so I'll will politely decline the offer. I suppose I should have marked in blue or red the relevant statements supporting my conclusion but in this case, I shall leave the proof to the student.
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_Spider-to-the-Fly
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Re: Why did the Church keep the KEP hidden?

Post by _Spider-to-the-Fly »

bcspace wrote:
At your nearby community college, there might be a course entitled Reading Comprehension 101 this fall quarter. Might I suggest you enroll.


Didn't seem to help you much so I'll will politely decline the offer. I suppose I should have marked in blue or red the relevant statements supporting my conclusion but in this case, I shall leave the proof to the student.

Mr. bcspace,

If you enroll, you might just find I am teaching the class.

Regards,

Spider.
Speaking of Rodin's sculpture, BYU official Alan Wilkins observed: "'The Thinker' does not represent the sort of activity that we believe is appropriate for the BYU setting."
_bcspace
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Re: Why did the Church keep the KEP hidden?

Post by _bcspace »

If you enroll, you might just find I am teaching the class.


Even worse, the blind leading the blind.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_thews
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Re: Why did the Church keep the KEP hidden?

Post by _thews »

bcspace wrote:
At your nearby community college, there might be a course entitled Reading Comprehension 101 this fall quarter. Might I suggest you enroll.


Didn't seem to help you much so I'll will politely decline the offer. I suppose I should have marked in blue or red the relevant statements supporting my conclusion but in this case, I shall leave the proof to the student.

The problem with you BC, is the only sound you hear with your head firmly planted up your ass is your own echo. Please link me to copies of the papyrus and EAG from an LDS site. While you're at it, you can finally give me your reference data to prove Brigham Young was not a racist, and the LDS church acknowledges the head-in-hat translation method with some picture from and LDS site.
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_Spider-to-the-Fly
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Re: Why did the Church keep the KEP hidden?

Post by _Spider-to-the-Fly »

bcspace wrote:
If you enroll, you might just find I am teaching the class.


Even worse, the blind leading the blind.

Mr. bcspace,

Then you would admit to being 'blind' when it comes to reading comprehension. Please then enroll in another section of Reading Comprehension 1010, taught by another instructor whom you do not believe to be blind him or herself.

Regards,

Spider.
Speaking of Rodin's sculpture, BYU official Alan Wilkins observed: "'The Thinker' does not represent the sort of activity that we believe is appropriate for the BYU setting."
_Joseph
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Re: Why did the Church keep the KEP hidden?

Post by _Joseph »

Lying, hiding or open and transparent but apparently mislaid for a bit. Mr space will never admit much of anything. But since the parchament pieces are available and the egyptian grammar is available we can have some good egyptologists examine them to see how they translate into Egyptian as it is known today to the community of scientists who deal with this stuff.

Modern dating techniques should help us to date the fragments and maybe Pres. Monson can get some inspiration as to which were personally written by Abraham, Moses and Aaron. Joseph Smith said they personally wrote on them so scientific dating should show the true age of the fragments.

The book comes to light after all these years to prove Joseph Smith could read and translate Egyptian. My o'my, the Lord works in mysterious ways.
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_sock puppet
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Re: Why did the Church keep the KEP hidden?

Post by _sock puppet »

To sum up in a short chronology here what facts posters brought to this thread,

1-Sometime after Joseph Smith's death and 10/17/1855, the KEP were transported from Nauvoo to Salt Lake City, where on 10/17/1855 there is a catalog entry for them by the Church Historian, George A. Smith

2-The Church did not bring out the KEP despite the "violent" public attack on the BoAbr by Reverend Franklin S. Spalding in 1912-13.

3-Prior to 2/16/1935, Dr. Sidney B Sperry (BYU) and his student assistant, James R Clark, had inquired of the Assistant Church Historian and staff at that office about the KEP, but been told that it was perhaps lost in transport from Nauvoo

4-On 2/16/1935, the Des News published an article about the KEP and the fact it was kept in a box by the Church Historian

4-During the week of 2/18-22/1935, armed with the Des News article, Dr. Sperry and Clark met with Assistant Church Historian, A. William Lund, who within 15 minutes was able to produce the KEP box for Dr. Sperry and Clark

5-In 1935 and 1936, Dr. Sperry and Clark were allowed to work on the KEP, but not cleared to make any public anouncement

6-Dr. Sperry's contribution to the 1938-39 MIA manual included a lesson for 11/8/1938, described but it did not disclose that the Church had the KEP and misleading that he had not seen the KEP when in fact he had, by couching his descriptions in terms of "it seems quite probable that" and "we can readily imagine".

After having explained the purpose of the Grammar,
Dr. Sperry wrote:“It seems therefore quite probable that the alphabet was arranged very much as follows. On the extreme left of the page the signs in question would be written down in a vertical column. To the right of this column would appear the sounds of the Egyptian sign or hieroglyphic in English letters together with an interpretation of the character in questions. We can readily imagine that some grammatical phenomena of the language would be revealed in the notes which the Prophet wrote down. It would seem rational to suppose that after the Prophet had written down many pages of these signs with their meanings he would become more and more competent to read them as they appeared on the papyrus.”


7-onandagus recalled that the fact of the Church's possessing the KEP was made known publicly before 1966, but rather than by Walter Whipple's concordance which Amazon lists as having a print date of 1972 and is the now out of print A concordance and dictionary to the Egyptian alphabet and grammar: In parallel with the Book of Abraham, by Walter L. Whipple http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=ntt_athr_dp_sr_1?_encoding=UTF8&sort=relevancerank&search-alias=books&field-author=Walter%20L%20Whipple.), it was discussed in Clark, James R. The Story of the Pearl of Great Price. Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1962.

8-Gerald and Sandra Tanner obtained a microfilm image of the KEP from James A. Wardle, and the Tanners went public with the images of the KEP in their 1966 book, Joseph Smith's Egyptian Alphabet & Grammar, which appears to have been the first wide-spread availability/distribution for the public to see the KEP.

9-A large donation by a donor whose identity the Metropolitan Museum of New York has kept confidential resulted in that museum turning over the Joseph Smith papyri that it had purchased in 1947 and had since then been part of its collection

An interview in Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Winter, 1968, pp. 55-64, with Dr. Henry G. Fischer, Curator of the Egyptian Collection at the Metropolitan Museum of Art--
DIALOGUE: Is this a standard practice to give such documents to interested private institutions such as the Church?

FISCHER: I am glad you asked that question, since, technically, we have not given the documents to the Church. As far as the Church is concerned, it is a gift, of course, but it was made possible by an anonymous donation which covered the cost to the Museum. We have not set a precedent for giving away an object; we cannot be in that position.

DIALOGUE: Would you say that the Church does not have complete ownership? Is there a way by which these documents could be called back?

FISCHER: No absolutely not. They are a gift from the Museum, but the gift was made possible because of an anonymous donation from a friend of ours.

10-That museum on 11/27/1967 publicly donated to the Church the found papyri. (Interestingly, University of Chicago Egyptologist Klaus Baer had alluded to this more than a year earlier in his 9/20/1966 letter to Grant S. Heward: a "lot of eleven papyri from the Joseph Smith collection that will probably make a reappearance in the not too distant future.")

11-The significance of how the KEP ties some of the text of the BoAbr to the found papyri (but the Egyptian characters on that papyri do not translate into anything close to the BoAbr text) was set forth by Grant S. Heward and Jerald Tanner in "The Source of the Book of Abraham Identified," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 3.2 (Summer 1968) pp. 92-98.

12-In "Prolegomena to Any Study of the Book of Abraham",
BYU Studies, Vol. 8, No. 2, (1968) pp.171-190, Hugh Nibley wrote with a very defensive tone (emphasis added):
It was hidden and suppressed for the same reason that Brigham Young's laundry lists are hidden and suppressed, because it was nobody else's business. Let us allow Joseph Smith at least for the time being the luxury of a moment of privacy, of a little speculation on his own there on his hands and knees in the front room of the Mansion House, with papyri spread out around him on the floor. The fact that he kept his notes strictly to himself is evidence enough that they were his own private concern and were never meant as a message to the Church.


13-In 1971, Nibley pronounces the Grammar is "of no practical value whatever." Hugh Nibley, "The Meaning of the Kirtland Egyptian Papers," BYU Studies 11, no. 4 (Summer 1971): 357. http://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFLibrary/11.4Nibley.pdf

14-In 1981, Michael Marquardt made an improved compilation of the KEP available in his book, The Joseph Smith Egyptian Papers.

15-A few years later, Steven F. Christensen was able to have hi-res photos taken, and from the negatives four sets of color prints were made, some of which are now in the possession of George D. Smith, Edward Ashment and Brent Metcalfe.

So, despite the naysaying TBMs in this thread, it does appear, as their beloved Nibley wrote, the Church hid and suppressed the KEP for sometime.

At least Nibley has postulated a reason why the Church hid and supressed the KEP. Do any of the TBMs now think the hiding and suppression was because even before the papyri was found in a New York museum and turned over to the Church, the Church knew the KEP was problematic for the Church's claims that the BoAbr is authentically what it purports to be and Joseph Smith said it was?
_sock puppet
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Re: Why did the Church keep the KEP hidden?

Post by _sock puppet »

An update to this thread for anyone interested. I have updated the summation post (what are now paragraphs 7 through 11 in that summation) http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=347698#p347698 to add and correct some facts of interest:

onandagus was right in recalling that an LDS writer had before 1966 (the year the Tanners revealed the images of the KEP) explained that the Church has the KEP. Rather than Walter Whipple's A concordance and dictionary to the Egyptian alphabet and grammar: In parallel with the Book of Abraham (1972), it was in Clark, James R. The Story of the Pearl of Great Price. Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1962.

Nevertheless, it appears that Gerald and Sandra Tanner were the first to make the KEP or photographic images of them available to the public by their 1966 book Joseph Smith's Egyptian Alphabet & Grammar.

A confidential donor made a large donation to the Metropolitan Museum of New York that led to museum then publicly "donating" the 11 pieces of Joseph Smith papyri to the Mormon Church. That this would take place was apparently known to Klaus Baer more than a year earlier.

It appears that in 1968, it was Jerald Tanner and Grant S. Heward in "The Source of the Book of Abraham Identified," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 3.2 (Summer 1968) that noted the significance of how the newly public KEP ties some of the text of the BoAbr to the newly available found papyri (but the Egyptian characters on that papyri do not translate into anything close to the BoAbr text) and thus the problems for the authenticity claims regarding the BoAbr.
_Nomad
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Re: Why did the Church keep the KEP hidden?

Post by _Nomad »

sock puppet wrote:An update to this thread for anyone interested. I have updated the summation post (what are now paragraphs 7 through 11 in that summation) http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=347698#p347698 to add and correct some facts of interest:

onandagus was right in recalling that an LDS writer had before 1966 (the year the Tanners revealed the images of the KEP) explained that the Church has the KEP. Rather than Walter Whipple's A concordance and dictionary to the Egyptian alphabet and grammar: In parallel with the Book of Abraham (1972), it was in Clark, James R. The Story of the Pearl of Great Price. Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1962.

Nevertheless, it appears that Gerald and Sandra Tanner were the first to make the KEP or photographic images of them available to the public by their 1966 book Joseph Smith's Egyptian Alphabet & Grammar.

A confidential donor made a large donation to the Metropolitan Museum of New York that led to museum then publicly "donating" the 11 pieces of Joseph Smith papyri to the Mormon Church. That this would take place was apparently known to Klaus Baer more than a year earlier.

It appears that in 1968, it was Jerald Tanner and Grant S. Heward in "The Source of the Book of Abraham Identified," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 3.2 (Summer 1968) that noted the significance of how the newly public KEP ties some of the text of the BoAbr to the newly available found papyri (but the Egyptian characters on that papyri do not translate into anything close to the BoAbr text) and thus the problems for the authenticity claims regarding the BoAbr.

Yep. The Tanner/Heward thesis is one of several that Schryver's findings disprove, or render moot.
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