How Do Apologists Believe the Peep Stone Worked?

[_Willy Law]

I am just getting into Quinns Magical World View so I by no means am trying to sound like I am an authority on the subject of buried treasure and peep stones. I would like to try and understand how the apologists on this board (particularly guys like Joseph Antley) can know all the details and still have a testimony of the divinity of the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith.
I am not trying to belittle anyones beliefs. Like I said on another post, if someone has all the facts and chooses to believe I have no problem with that. I am just looking for some understanding.
If we start with the basics:
-Treasure digging was very much a part of Joseph Smith's early life
-They believed that spirits protected the treasure and would guide people to the treasure
-Peep stones were used to find treasure
-Joseph used a peep stone in a hat to translate most of the Book of Mormon and continued to use the peep stone to receive revelation.
-Joseph encouraged others to find their own peep stones
-The church has Joseph's peep stone to this day in their vault

I would like to know if apologists believe that Joseph's peep stone actually worked the way he said it did in regards to the translation of the Book of Mormon and other revelations he received through the stone?
Do they believe the stone still works? Could TSM use the stone to receive a revelation today?
Again just trying to understand how someone can take the facts and make them work for them in their belief of the church. I know their are many active Mormons who know about treasure digging and peep stones and maintain a belief in the Book of Mormon and I am just trying to figure out the thought process.

[_Spider-to-the-Fly]

Mr. Willy Law,

As the highly esteemed Electric Light Orchestra (E.L.O.) song explained,

"Ho, ho, ho
"It's magic you know
"Never believe, it's not so
"It's magic, you know
"Never believe, it's not so".

If religious belief could not exceed the bounds of known physical properties, then we'd all believe no further than the scientific method would take us. That would be rational, but contrary to the emotional experience most of us humans are going through.

Regards,

Spider.

[_informant]

Mr. Willy Law,

As the highly esteemed Electric Light Orchestra (E.L.O.) song explained,

"Ho, ho, ho
"It's magic you know
"Never believe, it's not so
"It's magic, you know
"Never believe, it's not so".

If religious belief could not exceed the bounds of known physical properties, then we'd all believe no further than the scientific method would take us. That would be rational, but contrary to the emotional experience most of us humans are going through.

Regards,

Spider.

you stupid blithering idiot!!!! ELO didn't sing that song, PILOT did. Your credibility with this board just went to 0. have fun with your new reputation as know-nothing MORON!

[_Joseph]

Joseph Smiths magic peepstones only worked for him. If you try to use them they act like Celestial Tasers and will ZAP the hell out of you for trying.

[_Joseph Antley]

I would like to know if apologists believe that Joseph's peep stone actually worked the way he said it did in regards to the translation of the Book of Mormon and other revelations he received through the stone?

I think that the view that most take is that there wasn't really anything special about the stone. It was just a medium through which Joseph could receive inspiration. I don't think anything physically changed when Joseph received revelations through the stone -- no physical light or images, for example. Had someone else been looking, I don't think they would have seen anything. Joseph had the seer's gift; the stone was just a tool that he relied on in the early days.

Do they believe the stone still works? Could TSM use the stone to receive a revelation today?

I don't know. Brigham Young couldn't. Whether that's because it's an actual specific gift to be able to receive inspiration through a seer-stone, I don't know, because Joseph Smith receive revelations without it, as did President Young. Likewise, whether or not President Monson has the ability to use the seer-stone, he doesn't need to use it in order to receive revelation.

[Guest]

I think that the view that most take is that there wasn't really anything special about the stone. It was just a medium through which Joseph could receive inspiration. I don't think anything physically changed when Joseph received revelations through the stone -- no physical light or images, for example. Had someone else been looking, I don't think they would have seen anything. Joseph had the seer's gift; the stone was just a tool that he relied on in the early days.

This pretty accurately describes my own view of the stone. It was a rock. It is still a rock. When Joseph found his stone in Willard Chase's well, it could have been any rock that he chose. I think that any "power" that the stone had was that assigned to it by the user. When Joseph matured enough as a prophet, he realized that he didn't need the stone any longer. Therefore, the stone was only necessary as a means by which to guide Joseph that point of realization.

WW

Added: Sally Chase's stone was also a rock...a green rock. Any ability that the green rock may have had to locate another stone is simply that which Joseph attributed to it. It's still a rock.

[_Trevor]

This pretty accurately describes my own view of the stone. It was a rock. It is still a rock. When Joseph found his stone in Willard Chase's well, it could have been any rock that he chose. I think that any "power" that the stone had was that assigned to it by the user. When Joseph matured enough as a prophet, he realized that he didn't need the stone any longer, therefore the stone was only necessary as a mean to guide Joseph that point of realization.

While I am sympathetic to this view, and see it as essentially correct, what do you make of the promise that every righteous person would receive his own seer stone? Am I misremembering this? I have a vague recollection that Brigham Young said something to this effect, and that would suggest that perhaps a stone is not just a stone, at least in Brigham's view.

[_Wiki Wonka]

This pretty accurately describes my own view of the stone. It was a rock. It is still a rock. When Joseph found his stone in Willard Chase's well, it could have been any rock that he chose. I think that any "power" that the stone had was that assigned to it by the user. When Joseph matured enough as a prophet, he realized that he didn't need the stone any longer, therefore the stone was only necessary as a mean to guide Joseph that point of realization.

While I am sympathetic to this view, and see it as essentially correct, what do you make of the promise that every righteous person would receive his own seer stone? Am I misremembering this? I have a vague recollection that Brigham Young said something to this effect, and that would suggest that perhaps a stone is not just a stone, at least in Brigham's view.

An interesting point. It also raises the question of the need of a set of Nephite interpreters (what we commonly think of as the "Urim and Thummim.")

I'm not sure if Brigham mentioned it or not - the only reference to a "white stone" that I find after searching both the Journal of Discourses and the Messenger and Advocate is a single reference by Charles C. Rich (FEB. 10, 1878):

We read in the revelations of St. John, that the Saints are to receive a white stone, "and in the stone a new name, which no man knoweth save him that receiveth it." Joseph tells us that this new name is a key-word, which can only be obtained through the endowments. This is one of the keys and blessings that will be bestowed upon the Saints in these last days, for which we should be very thankful. Journal of Discourses 19:250

There are the references in the D&C and in Revelations:

Rev. 2: 17
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

D&C 130: 10-11
10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;
11 And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.

In all three of these references, the stone seems to be associated with a new name. However, the D&C expands on that and indicates that the stone would be used to receive revelation as well. In the case of the D&C passage, which is the only one that appears to associate the white stone with the "Urim and Thummim" as a means to receive revelation, it is possible that this simply reflects the cultural context of the time - in their minds, revelation was received though such a stone. One of David Whitmer's big objections (documented in An Address to All Believers in Christ) after he left the Church was that Joseph stopped using his stone to receive revelation. In David Whitmer's mind, any revelation that was not received by Joseph through the stone was invalid.

WW

[_DarkHelmet]

But if the rock has special super powers of its own, will those powers conflict with the incoming revelations from god, or will they enhance them? Is it lke a Jedi trying to use a Harry Potter wand? Would the combined powers of the wand and the force create a super-Jedi, or would they have a canceling out effect on each other? Did the powers of the rock combine with Joseph's translation powers to create a super-Prophet?

[_Wiki Wonka]

But if the rock has special super powers of its own...

I'm curious, do you believe that you have seen any LDS apologist on this thread make the claim that the rock had any "special super powers?"

Or any power at all?

Just wondering...

WW