How Do Apologists Believe the Peep Stone Worked?

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Hello,

Mopologists do not trust Joseph Smith's description of his own seer stone, and thus subvert their own prophet's words. No surprise. It is inconvenient for a Mopologist to have a prophet who receives revelation from a rock.

Very Respectfully,

Doctor CamNC4Me

[_Wiki Wonka]

Hello,

Mopologists do not trust Joseph Smith's description of his own seer stone, and thus subvert their own prophet's words. No surprise. It is inconvenient for a Mopologist to have a prophet who receives revelation from a rock.

Very Respectfully,

Doctor CamNC4Me

Can you provide us with Joseph's own words regarding his seer stone? I'd like to see which ones we do not trust.

The D&C is full of references to Joseph receiving revelation through the Urim and Thummim, which are clearly two rocks. He used those rocks, as well as his own stone, to receive revelation in the early days, then later said that he didn't need to use the stone any longer.

So, tell us what Joseph said about his stone, and I'll answer you with whether or not "Mopologists" agree with those words.

WW

[_Spider-to-the-Fly]

you stupid blithering idiot!!!! ELO didn't sing that song, PILOT did. Your credibility with this board just went to 0. have fun with your new reputation as know-nothing MORON!

Mr. Osborne,

Have a nice day.

Regards,

Spider.

[_Willy Law]

Thanks to all of you for your thoughts and opinions. It begs a few questions.
Besides the Book of Mormon, which I know apologists hold as a fruit of Joseph being a seer, are there any other instances of him having the "seer's gift" in the early church? From what I have studied he claimed to have this gift for years before the Book of Mormon yet never produced a buried treasure or any proof of his power?

Also, that time period is filled with people who claimed to have the "seer's gift", do you believe these people were, like Joseph, communicating with God? Were they communicating with another unseen power? Or were they all con men and women?

Finally, do you believe that there were literal gold plates? Since Joseph did not need or use them in the translation process were they real and literal?

Thanks again

[_Spider-to-the-Fly]

Mr. Wonka,

A few questions in this vein.

From JS-H 1:35 (what Joseph Smith was told)

… the possession and use of these stones were what constituted “seers” in ancient or former times; and that God had prepared them for the purpose of translating the book.

Do you think it is seers = the stones, or as it reads, seers = possession and use of the stones? If seers = possession and use of the stones, why do the FP/12 call themselves seers if not using the stones? If that reference is just to use of the term "seers" in ancient or former times, where in the Mormon scriptures is the current definition?

From JS-H 1:62 (Joseph Smith said)

I copied a considerable number of [the characters on the gold plates], and by means of the Urim and Thummim I translated some of them

And from D&C 10:1 (God speaking)

…those writings which you had power given unto you to translate by the means of the Urim and Thummim

Here, a "closer examination" of the language chosen by both God and by Joseph Smith described the Urim and Thummim as the means by which Joseph Smith translated them. Now this is Mormon canon. So where else in the Mormon canon does it dispel or contradict the notion that the Urim and Thummin was the means, leaving the Urim and Thummim to be merely a touchstone or crutch or training wheels for Joseph Smith until he realized he did not need them? In no dispelling or contradictory canon provision, why do you discount them as not the means of translating as is set forth in Mormon canon? Why did God not correct the language before included in Mormon canon if it can be so easily tossed aside?

Regards,

Spider.

[_Joseph Antley]

Thanks to all of you for your thoughts and opinions. It begs a few questions.
Besides the Book of Mormon, which I know apologists hold as a fruit of Joseph being a seer, are there any other instances of him having the "seer's gift" in the early church? From what I have studied he claimed to have this gift for years before the Book of Mormon yet never produced a buried treasure or any proof of his power?

According to Lucy Smith, he located a neighbor's lost horse, and Martin Harris claimed he found a needle in a haystack by looking into his stone.

Also, that time period is filled with people who claimed to have the "seer's gift", do you believe these people were, like Joseph, communicating with God?

Beats me. Probably not.

Were they communicating with another unseen power? Or were they all con men and women?

I don't think they were communicating with another unseen power. I think it may be possible that some may have had an innate gift which worked without the help of an unseen power. Some were probably jugglers.

Finally, do you believe that there were literal gold plates? Since Joseph did not need or use them in the translation process were they real and literal?

Yes. I don't think Joseph manufactured props, and Lucy definitely hefted something around when she was cleaning.

[_thews]

Can you provide us with Joseph's own words regarding his seer stone? I'd like to see which ones we do not trust.

Why do you have to dodge the same questions over and over again Wiki? Joseph Smith used his magic rocks to find treasure and “see” treasure guardians and that is a fact. Do we need Joseph Smith’s own words? How about the testimony of Jonathan Thompson who was his friend and testified that Joe Smith saw a dead Indian treasure guardian that guarded the treasure and moved it under the ground?
http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech4.htm

Jonathan Thompson says that prisoner was requested to look for chest of money; did look, and pretended to know where it was; and prisoner, Thompson, and Yeomans went in search of it; that Smith arrived at spot first; was at night; that Smith looked in hat while there, and when very dark, and told how the chest was situated. After digging several feet, struck upon something sounding like a board or plank. Prisoner would not look again, pretending that he was alarmed on account of the circumstances relating to the trunk being buried, [which], came all fresh to his mind. That the last time he looked he discovered distinctly the two Indians who buried the trunk, that a quarrel ensued between them, and that one of said Indians was killed by the other, and thrown into the hole beside the trunk, to guard it, as he supposed. Thompson says that he believes in the prisoner's professed skill; that the board which he struck his spade upon was probably the chest, but on account of an enchantment the trunk kept settling away from under them when digging; that notwithstanding they continued constantly removing the dirt, yet the trunk kept about the same distance from them. Says prisoner said that it appeared to him that salt might be found at Bainbridge, and that he is certain that prisoner can divine things by means of said stone. That as evidence of the fact prisoner looked into his hat to tell him about some money witness lost sixteen years ago, and that he described the man that witness supposed had taken it, and the disposition of the money:

And therefore the Court find[s] the Defendant guilty. Costs: Warrant, l9c. Complaint upon oath, 251/2 c. Seven witnesses, 871/2 c. Recongnisances, 25 c. Mittimus, 19 c. Recongnisances of witnesses, 75 c. Suboena, 18 c.—$2.68" (Fraser's Magazine, February, 1873, pp. 229-30).

The D&C is full of references to Joseph receiving revelation through the Urim and Thummim, which are clearly two rocks. He used those rocks, as well as his own stone, to receive revelation in the early days, then later said that he didn't need to use the stone any longer.

The D&C was written based on the Book of Commandments which said nothing about the Urim and Thummim until 1833 (3 years after the Book of Mormon). This first “revelation” said nothing about the U&T and the history of church clearly chronicles this insertion in the D&C 10:1-3 after-the-fact. What do you have to say of the data provided by ttribe which cites the use of the U&T (a.k.a. “seer stones”) in 1843?
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11896&start=21

BC 9:1, p. 22 — Now, behold I say unto you, that because you delivered up so many writings, which you had power to translate, into the hands of a wicked man, you have lost them, and you also lost your gift at the same time …
[Harmony, Pennsylvania May 1829]
The revelation (already written and published) in The Doctrine and Covenants10:1-3 was later changed to add “by means of the Urim and Thummim” which introduces doubt regarding whether or not they were “lost” along with the 116 pages. How the D&C reads after the change:
DOCTRINE and COVENANTS
1 NOW, behold, I say unto you, that because you delivered up those writings which you had power given unto you to translate by the means of the Urim and Thummim, into the hands of a wicked man, you have lost them.
2 and you also lost your gift at the same time, and your mind became darkened.
3 Nevertheless, it is now restored unto you again; therefore see that you are faithful and continue on unto the finishing of the remainder of the work of translation as you have begun.
If you read the history of the church, the date reads as follows:
http://www.boap.org/...1c3history.html
History of the Church Vol.1
Chapter 3. [Jan. 1827 - Mar. 1829]
The Nephite Record Delivered To Joseph-- The Angel's Warning--The Work of Translation.

This implies it was all written from Jan. 1827 – Mar. 1829. The Notes section fills in some blanks:
http://www.boap.org/...1c3history.html

Notes Chapter 3
1. Most reports state that throughout the project Joseph used the "Nephite interpreters" or, for convenience, he would use a seer stone (see CHC 1:128-30). Both instruments were sometimes called by others the Urim and Thummim.
13. The term Urim and Thummim, while used in this revelation and in the ms text does not appear in early publications of the revelation, nor does it seem to have been used in any contemporary document of the principals. No early ms of this revelation survives apparently. In the 1833 Book of Commandments, verse one read "Now, behold I say unto you, that because you delivered up so many writings, which you had power to translate, into the hands of a wicked man, you have lost them. . . ." Thus, the words "by the means of the Urim and Thummim" in verse one were not part of this verse in the Book of Commandments; nor was section 17, which also makes use of the term Urim and Thummim, printed in the Book of Commandments. Both section 17 and verse one of section 10, as we now have them, first appeared in the 1835 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants. Lyndon Cook writes:
While the retroactive placement of the term in section 10 has led to some speculation relative to the Prophet's having the instrument in his possession, a preponderance of evidence confirms the Prophet's own testimony: "With the records was found a curious instrument, which the ancients called 'Urim and Thummim,' which consisted of two transparent stones set in the rim of a bow fastened to a breastplate" (History of the Church, 4:537 [Wentworth letter]). The problem here seems to be one of terminology, not whether or not the Prophet had possession of an ancient artifact. Until some time after the translation of the Book of Mormon, the sacred instruments may have been referred to as "Interpreters," or "spectacles." It is possible that Joseph Smith's inspired translation of the Bible played some part in designating the translating instrument "Urim and Thummim." The earliest use of the term Urim and Thummim in Mormon literature is in the Evening and Morning Star (January 1833). An article on the Book of Mormon, undoubtedly authored by W. W. Phelps, stated, "It was translated by the gift and power of God, by an unlearned man, through the aid of a pair of Interpreters, or spectacles--(known, perhaps in ancient days as Teraphim, or Urim and Thummim)." [RJS, 17]

In footnote 1, there’s an admission that a seer stone was used “or, for convenience, he would use a seer stone.” In footnote 13, it claims the preponderance of the evidence supports using the name Urim and Thummim, yet admits the name wasn’t published until 1833 at the earliest: “The earliest use of the term Urim and Thummim in Mormon literature is in the Evening and Morning Star (January 1833)”

See post #50:
http://www.mormonapologetics.org/topic/ ... ge__st__40

So, tell us what Joseph said about his stone, and I'll answer you with whether or not "Mopologists" agree with those words.

WW

Why is the onus on us to provide "Joseph Smith's words" when you can't even acknowledge that the U&T never existed, they were called the Nephite spectacles" and were taken back with the lost 116 pages? From Brant Gardner on the subject:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11896&start=21

The original name for the instruments delivered with the plates was the "interpreters." Joseph had more than one seer stone prior to that time.

The name Urim and Thummim is obviously biblical, and the best information indicates it wasn't applied to the interpreters or the seer stone until W.W. Phelps made the comparison in 1833. After that time, it became the popular designation for the both the interpreters and the seer stone. The only way to know which of the instruments "Urim and Thummim" refers to is to know time tables.

Regardless of which of the two types of mechanical instruments used (interpreters or seer stones), it appears that the actual use of the instrument was fundamentally the same. From the view of the text produced, there was no difference in the instrument used.
It appears that the interpreters were used for the 116 pages (though I suspect not exclusively). A seer stone was used for the rest (meaning the text we now have) according to Emma.

If I gave the impression that the interpreters were used after the translation of the 116 pages, I apologize for that erroneous impression. I don't know of any instrument other than the seer stone after that time.

Question for Wiki Wonka:

Question: Why don't the LDS sites show Joseph Smith with his head-in-hat using his seer stones to translate the Book of Mormon since we know for a fact this was the only means used to translate the Gold plates?

[_Joseph Antley]

Question: Why don't the LDS sites show Joseph Smith with his head-in-hat using his seer stones to translate the Book of Mormon since we know for a fact this was the only means used to translate the Gold plates?

I think you may be jumping the gun here. We don't "know for a fact" that that was the only method used to translate.

[_Willy Law]

But don't you agree that it is a more honest portrayal than we are bombarded with from the time we are sunbeams?

[_moksha]

How Do Apologists Believe the Peep Stone Worked?

The presence of di-lithium crystals and anti-matter, surrounded by a medium a smart molecules.

I am now ready to receive my honorary credits for Physics 101 and Gospel Apologetics 102, Dr. Samuelson.