DiscussMormonism.com

Yahoo Bot wrote:The Church used representatives of the 12 to supervise Church affairs and properties and the needs of members. In the Nauvoo exodus they would be called trustees. They finctioned like today's district presidents.

You speak of failed leadership. Should the Church have simply stayed in Nauvoo?

I've read both designations trustess and agents through my study. Perhaps history has neglected to determine whether they were apostles, prophets, 70's, regional reps, gospel doctrine teachers or even real estate agents.

You're asking me what I would have done if I were in leadership 150+ years ago. I think I would have attempted to protect William and Wilson Law's printing press.

I would have called it all off and turned myself and the other scumbags in for Mormon adultery. I would have also taught my sheep to love, respect and honor other sheep.

Your "failed leadership" alternative to have the scumbags turn themselves in and follow some sort of New Age philosophy of Christianity (Christ went to the Garden of Gethsemane with an armed retinue and the Second Coming is not promised to be a love feast) is, well, just a nice but unpersuasive ideal.

Those scumbags have left behind an organization that resembles Daniel's rolling stone.

Yahoo Bot wrote:Your "failed leadership" alternative to have the scumbags turn themselves in and follow some sort of New Age philosophy of Christianity (Christ went to the Garden of Gethsemane with an armed retinue and the Second Coming is not promised to be a love feast) is, well, just a nice but unpersuasive ideal.

Those scumbags have left behind an organization that resembles Daniel's rolling stone.

Not sure what a reference to New Age Philosophy has to do with this. But I see how this would upset certain lawyers that can't make money when their clients confess and turn themselves in.

What Smith and the hierarchy were doing was clearly wrong on several legal levels. Their God had no respect for the laws of the land he takes credit for. Their God reminds me more of Al Gore.

There was a Big Stone Rolling - right behind them coming from the same land people still flock to today for freedom and liberty. Young's craft only survived because is stopped rolling at the Mississippi for a time.

Let's revisit.

1. You don't acknowledge well-documented mobocracy during the Battle of Nauvoo, leading to cannonading and the death of Mormon residents. You suggest that there weren't really mobs. Gov. Ford saw it otherwise, calling them "armed ruffians" (Ford's History, p. 324).

2. You take exception (in that you seem to accept it and find the claim repulsive) to the rumor that Brigham Young ordered the temple burned, and take offense at Brigham Young's efforts to sell the temple, but you don't really explain why the latter is so offensive.

3. You make a big deal of the fact that Emma remained in Nauvoo untouched by the mobbers but, in fact, it is well-known that she fled Nauvoo to Fulton City, Illinois. She didn't return until February 1847. (Leonard, Nauvoo, p. 625.)

4. You criticize "failed leadership" but didn't realize that the Twelve left leaders behind. Indeed, the Church's General Conference occurred in April 1846 in Nauvoo, presided over by Orson Hyde. The conference theme was to urge the remnants to leave and cross the river into Iowa to find work until they could outfit themselves for the westward journey. (Leonard, Nauvoo, p. 598.) Left behind in Nauvoo in 1846 up to the battle of Nauvoo was Daniel H. Wells, a later member of the First Presidency. (Leonard, p. 606.)

5. Instead, your argument descends to an attack upon my profession and, it appears, me personally. That I can't quite understand.

6. You shift your argument about failed leadership to the scumbags and that they had no respect for the laws of the land. Plural marriage was not illegal in Iowa, where the Saints fled. As to the destruction of the press, after the assassins of the Smiths were tried and acquitted, the surviving Mormons behind the destruction of the press were tried and acquitted. (Ford's History, p. 237.) Looks like neither were illegal when the smoke cleared.

Further on Ford's view:

The "armed ruffians" "saw with their own eyes that the Mormons were industriously preparing to go away, and they knew of their own knowledge that an effort to expel them with force was gratuitous and unnecessary cruelty. They [the Mormons] had been trained in the States to abhor mobs and to obey the law . . . ." (Ford's History, p 325.) Ford decries the mobocracy but defends his decision not to declare martial law to protect the Saints. (p. 328.)

Yahoo Bot wrote:1. You don't acknowledge well-documented mobocracy during the Battle of Nauvoo, leading to cannonading and the death of Mormon residents. You suggest that there weren't really mobs. Gov. Ford saw it otherwise, calling them "armed ruffians" (Ford's History, p. 324).

Sure I acknowledge it. 2 Mormons died. Honestly, can you even call that a war? Think about it.

2. You take exception (in that you seem to accept it and find the claim repulsive) to the rumor that Brigham Young ordered the temple burned, and take offense at Brigham Young's efforts to sell the temple, but you don't really explain why the latter is so offensive.

No. However, I see paintings of a temple burning (or with smoke in the clouds above it) while sAints flee across a river. A picture is worth a thousand words. Those words do not tell an accurate story.

3. You make a big deal of the fact that Emma remained in Nauvoo untouched by the mobbers but, in fact, it is well-known that she fled Nauvoo to Fulton City, Illinois. She didn't return until February 1847.

My point is that she didn't have much of a price on her head as a Mormon prophet's first wife. She didn't go far. If no one hunted her down and did violence to her why would anyone living in Nauvoo be more important than her? I would speculate she left after everyone else did, but I do not recall.

4. You criticize "failed leadership" but didn't realize that the Twelve left leaders behind. Indeed, the Church's General Conference occurred in April 1846 in Nauvoo, presided over by Orson Hyde. The conference theme was to urge the remnants to leave and cross the river into Iowa to find work until they could outfit themselves for the westward journey. (Leonard, Nauvoo, p. 598.) Left behind in Nauvoo in 1846 up to the battle of Nauvoo was Daniel H. Wells, a later member of the First Presidency. (Leonard, p. 606.)

Orson Hyde left with Young and later returned, didn't he? Daniel Wells was not a member of the First presidency while in Nauvoo.

How many members actually remained to attend the conference?

I find it deceiptful that even today, the hierarchy still teaches that the sAints were chased out of Nauvoo by a mob. When in reality, they had plenty of time to prepare every needful thing.

Captains don't jump ship.

Young and his mates went overboard taking the well stocked lifeboats, leaving the members dead rudder to lather up non-existant fears. Over a thousand Mormons died, due to lack of leadership and preparation. How many actually died from a mobber?

5. Instead, your argument descends to an attack upon my profession and, it appears, me personally. That I can't quite understand.

Lawyers also seem to use this "I can't quite understand" argument. If you are not one of those kinds of lawyers, maybe you do understand. You can let it go.

6. You shift your argument about failed leadership to the scumbags and that they had no respect for the laws of the land. Plural marriage was not illegal in Iowa, where the Saints fled. The press bla bla..

..Ford's view:

The "armed ruffians" "saw with their own eyes that the Mormons were industriously preparing to go away, and they knew of their own knowledge that an effort to expel them with force was gratuitous and unnecessary cruelty..

Iowa wasn't a destination, it was rest stop. Did Young intend to rename Iowa the Great Basin? They ran ahead of their flock to where the Laws of the United States of America had no claim upon the abominations they were practicing in secret. Did Young's forward party leave any polygamists in Nauvoo? I'm not sure. I imagine their roster contains most if not all of them. Do you know? I don't think those left behind in Nauvoo did either.

You refer to a humane mob. Why? How would this bolster any argument that the Mormons needed to flee Nauvoo without proper preparation?

Lot of speculation here.

Bottom line, the Nauvoo Pioneer Memorial screams that thousands died of exposure while a small handful of bullets actually hit a few Mormons by Satan's relentless mobbers?

Who was (the Mormon) Satan's greatest asset? Seriously.

Young or a thousand mobbers?

My point is that she didn't have much of a price on her head as a Mormon prophet's first wife. She didn't go far. If no one hunted her down and did violence to her why would anyone living in Nauvoo be more important than her? I would speculate she left after everyone else did, but I do not recall.

I think she was regarded as a victim. She left briefly, returned after most of the Mormons had left, re-married soon, and lived there for the rest of her life.

Sure I acknowledge it. 2 Mormons died. Honestly, can you even call that a war? Think about it.

What Bot is talking about is the anti-Mormon violence that rose up a year or so later.

The leaders left the country to avoid pROsecution, The followers did what followers do.

Inconceivable wrote:Sure I acknowledge it. 2 Mormons died. Honestly, can you even call that a war? Think about it.

Ford calls it inhumane expulsion at the point of bayonets. Whether it be "war" or "persecution," it was mob action violence.

No. However, I see paintings of a temple burning (or with smoke in the clouds above it) while sAints flee across a river. A picture is worth a thousand words. Those words do not tell an accurate story.

I am not bound by artwork. Artists paint what they like.

My point is that she didn't have much of a price on her head as a Mormon prophet's first wife. She didn't go far. If no one hunted her down and did violence to her why would anyone living in Nauvoo be more important than her? I would speculate she left after everyone else did, but I do not recall.

How much do you really know? There was peace in Nauvoo from 1844 to the summer of 1846, at which point she had left.

Orson Hyde left with Young and later returned, didn't he? Daniel Wells was not a member of the First presidency while in Nauvoo.

Wells was the presiding priesthood authority. Also there was Babbitt.

How many members actually remained to attend the conference?

Again, how much do you really know about the sequence of events? This was the Church's general conference. The temple was dedicated on this date, April 1846.

I find it deceiptful that even today, the hierarchy still teaches that the sAints were chased out of Nauvoo by a mob. When in reality, they had plenty of time to prepare every needful thing.

Not according to Ford.

In June 1846, broadsides were circulating in Hancock County urging the citizens to take up arms to kill the Mormons.

Thomas Sharp's newspaper blasted: "War Declared in Hancock." Several hundred armed volunteers then led by Levi Williams of Warsaw marched to Nauvoo with a cannon.

Stake President Stephen Markham was on hand in Nauvoo to organize the Saints into resistance.

Sharp's articles continued: "The fact is, there is no peace for Hancock County while a Mormon remains in it."

The local militia took Mormons hostage, demanding the Mormons evacuate Nauvoo.

According to a September 19 newspaper account from the Burlington Hawkeye:

"On either shore of the Mississippi may be seen a long line of tents, wagons, cattle, etc., with numberless wretched specimens of humanity. Since the armistice or "treaty" the Mormons are crossing in almost breathless haste." Meanwhile, the report said the soldiers forcing the Saints into the river were bivouacking in the Mansion House (Emma's residence; she was gone) and the temple. "It appeared as if the vengeance of the Almighty rested upon this doomed city." (Leonard, Nauvoo, 615.)

The Twelve then dispatched a relief company to travel 300 miles to assist with the evacuation.

You repeat the refrain there was a "lack of leadership." In fact, the orderly withdrawal of the Saints occurred in 1845, leaving behind only several hundred. These several hundred included those who wanted to stay behind to try and sell their property, those who were doubtful about Brigham Young's leadership and favored another, or those who didn't have the resources to go. Those who remained behind were repeatedly counseled to join the Saints, a theme of the Apr 46 conference.

Yahoo[,] Serious[ly?]

I mean, your signature line.

Beastie to me, Oct. 21, 2007: "Hey, [uses my first name], it's a miracle you have [describes my children] kids. I guess that means your wife laid back and thought of England seven times."

How bad could beastie's statement have afflicted you, your wife and your children if you want to keep advertising it as the signature line of every post? All you are doing is neutralizing any 'horror' you claim it had. Keep in mind. beastie wrote it once. You want the whole world to know, over and over and over... . If writing/posting it is the problem, how many more times are you guilty of it than beastie?

Is your animus toward beastie stronger than your desire to shield and protect your wife and children? Obviously it is. You are one sick puppy.

It has been hard to forget. She has not only published it once but many, many times over.

Most (not all) of my family has been in therapy as a result, a cost I can't cover with insurance. Every night, one of my kids asks about England and what Beastie's phrase means, and I have to explain it all over again.

Yahoo Bot wrote:It has been hard to forget. She has not only published it once but many, many times over.

Most (not all) of my family has been in therapy as a result, a cost I can't cover with insurance. Every night, one of my kids asks about England and what Beastie's phrase means, and I have to explain it all over again.

Every night? You explain that to your kids? Why did you show it to them in the first place?

Yahoo bot, your credibility here is extremely strained and thin.