DiscussMormonism.com

OK, maybe not "every" night.

About six weeks ago, my 5 year-old came up to me and asked me, "Daddy, what does it mean to think of England?" I explained that it was a Victorian phrase pertaining to the duty to produce an heir, and I think was able to deflect it.

But, my teenagers at the high school get unendurable taunts from classmates -- "hah hah -- your mother had to lie back and think of England." Hah hah hah. Unrelenting taunting.

Yahoo Bot wrote:OK, maybe not "every" night.

About six weeks ago, my 5 year-old came up to me and asked me, "Daddy, what does it mean to think of England?" I explained that it was a Victorian phrase pertaining to the duty to produce an heir, and I think was able to deflect it.

But, my teenagers at the high school get unendurable taunts from classmates -- "hah hah -- your mother had to lie back and think of England." Hah hah hah. Unrelenting taunting.

So high school students are reading MDB. The Mormon Church is in big trouble trying to get future converts of those who were raised with the Internet.

Yes, and the day they discovered Beastie's unpleasant comments about me, we had to call 911.

Yahoo Bot wrote:Yes, and the day they discovered Beastie's unpleasant comments about me, we had to call 911.

Who made physical violence threats or was injured?

Headline!

Over one thousand Mormons trek to their deaths following adulterous leaders across the plains to avoid persecution from United States Citizens.

Again, how many died in Nauvoo by the mobber's hands? Do I need all my fingers to count?

Inconceivable wrote:Headline!

Over one thousand Mormons trek to their deaths following adulterous leaders across the plains to avoid persecution from United States Citizens.

Again, how many died in Nauvoo by the mobber's hands? Do I need all my fingers to count?

Umm -- I wonder if you have any clue as to comparative mortality rates for trans-continental pioneer treks. What makes the Mormons' trek of 1846-47 any different?

Susan Easton Black's study is reported here: http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?h ... 82620aRCRD

She concludes that mortality rates for overland crossings (although individually significant, for particular crossing, such as the Martin handcarts) are no higher than those for people staying at home. Elderly people and infants died frequently, at home or on the plains.

By comparison, the Donner party suffered a mortality rate of double the ordinary. http://discovermagazine.com/1992/mar/livingthroughthe4

So if you want to discuss the subject, you should be familiar with sociological studies which compare mortality rates with stay-at-home people and mortality rates with similar crossings.

One final comment: If you want to read a book very critical and sarcastic of the handcart trek (the author ran away in terror from elderly missionaries at Martin's Cove), read David Roberts' Devil's Gate: Brigham Young and the Great Mormon Handcart Tragedy. While he argues that the handcart pioneers were deluded sheep following ill-informed and venal leaders of the Church, he completely undercuts the argument by citing numerous examples of what he calls "back-outs." These are people who stopped or quit along the way to try the crossing later, to better outfit themselves, to get employment along the way,to wait for better weather, or to return to England as disgruntled Saints. He documents incident after incident of "back-outs." These people had their freedom of will. You seem to argue that the 19th century traveler had no freedom of will, and said, simply, "Thank you sir, I'll have another."

You don't get it. These people had homes, society and could have had security.

There was a choice by the leaders to teach love toward outsiders. The point is that had these people been encouraged to get along with their neighbors and abide the laws of the land there was no need to even be a pioneer or die from exposure.

It ought to be a history lesson about how people should learn to get along with their neighbors so they don't die needlessly.

The argument has nothing to do with mortality rates of the typical pioneer.

So we have names of militia/guard troops. Are you saying these folks led by officers are mobs?

How about the 'mobs' that dragged Joseph out of his house and tarred the guy? The 'mobs' in Missouri.(I am only too familiar with Hauns mill and direct relatives of a good friend who used to post on here as that relative is the 'nits will make lice' murderer of little kids) I am also familiar with diaries of some from that time that the Mormons were raiding their neighbors and stealing from them.

But, how big were 'the mobs' we hear so much about? Or are they mostly like 'the vicious lies' of the Nauvoo expositor and 'the great flood' of Noah?

Joseph wrote:So we have names of militia/guard troops. Are you saying these folks led by officers are mobs?

But, how big were 'the mobs' we hear so much about?

As I have pointed out a few times, Gov. Ford in his biography characterized the people who led the attack in 1846 on Nauvoo as "inhumane" "mobbers" numbering the several hundreds, led by "officers" who had militia-issued arms, including a cannon.

I am also familiar with diaries of some from that time that the Mormons were raiding their neighbors and stealing from them.

Most scholars and observers discount these events as minor exceptions to the general rule that Mormons were overwhelmingly the victims. I cite Gov. Thomas Ford, as well as James Gordon Bennet, Bancroft and Stenhouse. Today, these incidents are magnified by some -- Quinn for one.

Inconceivable wrote:You don't get it. These people had homes, society and could have had security. . . . There was a choice by the leaders to teach love toward outsiders. The point is that had these people been encouraged to get along with their neighbors and abide the laws of the land there was no need to even be a pioneer or die from exposure.

I guess the same could have been said about the Huguenots or the Puritans.

I'm wondering if there is a timeline somewhere that shows this era?

And because our SP's wife has a real hangup about the handcart companies, we were once again worshipping at their feet during the program for the 24th of July in my ward. But the handcart companies are not connected to the Nauvoo exodus are they? I thought the Nauvoo exodus was one of wagons, not handcarts.