Shulem Cracks the Book of Ether! Jaredite Expedition & Geography is Revealed!

[Shulem]

Hugh Nibley, however, proposed a possible Egyptian explanation for the origins of the word. Nibley’s argument was well summarized by Stephen Parker, in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism:

The constant fallback used by apologists to defend the indefensible is like throwing spaghetti in the air hoping it sticks to something or falls to the ground to miraculously form an amazing shape rather than a pile of slop. It's possible that the spaghetti might stick to something or fall to the ground and form a perfect square or a circle. But the apologetic spaghetti never does the miraculous! At most, some of it it will stick to the wall because that's the nature of wet & sticky noodles.

The point I'm making is that apologists are always looking for ways to make their argument possible by bending, twisting, and flat-out lying. So what did Nibley say?

In Egyptian, dšrt means the red crown (of the king of Lower Egypt). The Egyptian word for bee is bt. In the discussion of the sign dšrt, Alan Gardiner, in Egyptian Grammar, states that [the glyph for the dšrt crown] was used to replace [the glyph for bee] in two Egyptian titles where [the bee glyph] was used to mean the ... King of Lower Egypt. … This substitution of [the dšrt crown] for [the bee] has led Nibley to associate the Egyptian word dšrt and the Book of Mormon word deseret.

1) In Egyptian, dšrt means the red crown (of the king of Lower Egypt)
TRUE

2) The Egyptian word for bee is bt.
TRUE

3) In the discussion of the sign dšrt, Alan Gardiner, in Egyptian Grammar, states that [the glyph for the dšrt crown] was used to replace [the glyph for bee] in two Egyptian titles where [the bee glyph] was used to mean the ... King of Lower Egypt. …
FALSE

There was no replacing or substituting the dšrt (Red Crown) with bt (Bee) in order to make the Red Crown have the same meaning as the Bee! First, let it be understood that both hieroglyphs literally mean exactly what they represent (Red Crown & Honey Bee), however, either sign may be used individually to represent a king of Lower Egypt. Neither of these signs replace each other or change the actual meaning of what they pictorially represent:

1) Crown
2) Bee

The dšrt may be used to literally mean the Red Crown and have no reference to a king who wears it. Likewise, the bt may be used to literally mean a honey bee without reference to a king of Egypt. Both signs may be used individually but both signs always maintain their original pictorial meaning and distinct pronunciation! When (the bee and sedge plant are) used together they always represent a king of Egypt. No exceptions!

The bt (bee) is a honey bee or a king of Egypt.
The dšrt (crown) is the Red Crown or a king of Egypt.

You cannot cross dšrt with bt! Both signs represent exactly what they are but both signs can be used to signify a king of Lower Egypt either individually or in combination with other signs. However, both signs retain their distinct individual pronunciation as well as their original iconography for what they actually are.

1) dšrt = dšrt
2) bt = bt

Please refer to Wikipedia for basic information regarding Deshret

[Shulem]

Where Does the Word “Deseret” Come From?

It is generally assumed that the Brother of Jared and his companions left from Mesopotamia, so an Egyptian explanation for the word may seem odd at first. However, evidence for beekeeping in ancient Mesopotamia is basically nonexistent. According to Ronan J. Head, “In a culture that has produced literally hundreds of thousands of extant cuneiform tablets detailing every conceivable aspect of life, including agriculture, the silence on beekeeping is striking.” Thus, if the Jaredites left from Mesopotamia, they must have gotten their bees from an outside culture.

Biblical chronology tells us the tower of Babel and the dividing of tongues occurred just 100 years after Noah's flood whereby the people split apart to go form their own countries. Don't look for answers in Mesopotamia via Egypt! How utterly pathetic the apologists have become because they know information about beekeeping in Mesopotamia at that time is nonexistent! The apologists thinks to appeal to the Egyptians when according to the Bible they hadn't had enough time to even develop a language let alone publish it to the rest of the world! The Egyptians can't possible solve their problem!



So, the apologists with head down, and a sad countenance says: "Thus, if the Jaredites left from Mesopotamia, they must have gotten their bees from an outside culture."

What? From an outside culture? Are they saying that the families of Shem and Japheth had to depend on dear ole Ham for their beekeeping information?

The Jaredites getting their beehive stuff from those who were cursed from the priesthood?

How about just admitting that you don't know where they got their bee culture and maybe Joseph Smith was just making stuff up?

Problem solved.

[Shulem]

As far back as 3300 BC, there are clear cultural connections between Egypt and Mesopotamia. If the Jaredites got their bees through some exchange with Egypt, this could explain both why they used an Egyptian term, and the reason the word is defined in the text. Beekeeping would have been unfamiliar to Jared and his family as Mesopotamians, thus they would have needed to adopt a foreign word (deseret). This explains why the word needed to be defined.

According to biblical chronology, EGYPT did NOT even exist in 3300 BC! At that time, Enoch was ministering and Noah's flood was a thousand years in the future! Joseph Smith agreed with biblical chronology so there was no such thing as Egypt at the time in question according Mormon scriptures! Isn't that right, John Gee?

The apologist is fantasizing about finding ways to get the word "deseret" into Joseph Smith's Book of Mormon using other nations that according to Joseph Smith did not yet exist! Apologists have no choice but to face up to the fact that they have no proof to support their cause and only imagination to support the evidence they are presenting.

[Shulem]

Trofonio (Trophonius (Τροφώνιος), Historia Deorum Fatidicorum, Geneva, 1675.

Enjoy the rich and sweet taste of deseret honey from Babel.

[Shulem]

As he abridged Mosiah’s translation of the plates of Ether, Moroni must have been struck by the idea that the Jaredites had carried with them “deseret.” Wanting to be clear about this remarkable point, Moroni provided the translation of this word as “a honey bee.” He then explained that the Jaredites had carried “swarms of bees” and “seeds of every kind” with them into the valley of Nimrod, perhaps because he knew the importance of honey bees for crop pollination. This would have prepared the group to do what the Lord commanded them to do: move into an unsettled land.

Anyone who knows anything about bees knows that the Europeans brought bees to America. The Jaredites did not brings bees to America. You can forget about that. There were no honey bees in America during the time the Jaredites were alleged to occupy the land and neither were there any during Nephite times.

[Shulem]

As bees can symbolize hard work, the mention of bees here would be appropriate, considering the amount of work needed to make the Jaredite migration a success.

Joseph Smith's novel about an imaginary people in Mesopotamia working hard does not provide a means for bees to cross the ocean and get to America in order to match the vitality of the story.

[Shulem]

Okay, okay. I've been on a bit of a tirade but it's Lem's fault for not getting back fast enough to tell me to post this thread in the Celestial Forum where I have to be nice.

[Shulem]

An abridgment taken from the Book of Ether also, which is a record of the people of Jared, who were scattered at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, when they were building a tower to get to heaven —

JOSEPH SMITH had determined to write this history into his novel BEFORE he dictated a single word to Martin Harris and Oliver Cowdery. Smith developed his ideas and got inspiration mainly from the Bible but also other sources such as JOSEPHUS. Here is a statement made by Josephus, seemingly, the very inspiration Smith perceived in forming the idea of inventing Jaredites and their marvelous migration to the promised land:

Chapter 4.

1. Now the sons of Noah were three, Shem and Japhet, and Ham, born one hundred years before the deluge. These first of all descended from the mountains into the plains, and fixed their habitation there; and persuaded others, who were greatly afraid of the lower grounds on account of the flood, and so were very loth to come down from the higher places, to venture to follow their examples. Now the plain, in which they first dwelt, was called Shinar. God also commanded them to send colonies abroad, for the thorough peopling of the earth; that they might not raise seditions among themselves, but might cultivate a great part of the earth, and enjoy its fruits after a plentiful manner. But they were so ill instructed, that they did not obey God. For which reason they fell into calamities, and were made sensible by experience of what sin they had been guilty of. For when they flourished with a numerous youth, God admonished them again to send out colonies. But they imagining the prosperity they enjoyed was not derived from the favour of God, but supposing that their own power was the proper cause of the plentiful condition they were in, did not obey him. Nay they added to this their disobedience to the divine will, the suspicion that they were therefore ordered to send out separate colonies, that, being divided asunder, they might the more easily be oppressed.

Chapter 5.

1. After this they were dispersed abroad, on account of their languages, and went out by colonies everywhere. And each colony took possession of that land which they light upon, and unto which God led them: so that the whole continent was filled with them, both the inland and the maritime countries. There were some also who passed over the sea in ships, and inhabited the islands.

YOU heard it first, right here on Discuss Mormonism, LIVE!

[Moksha]

Why must this God always be angry when people refuse to do what he demands?

Think how different history would have been with benevolent 5-year plans to advance the narrative.

[Shulem]