KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
_Emeritus
Posts: 21663
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:02 am

Re: KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Sooo... is ~nine years enough time for Sock Puppet to get some answers or what? ;)

- Doc
Last edited by Guest on Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_Shulem
_Emeritus
Posts: 12072
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:48 am

Re: KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

Post by _Shulem »

Hey Kevin,

Thanks to the Joseph Smith Papers we can easily zoom in and see that "illegible" word that had us stumped when all we had before was cheap photo copies:

Zoom in and see the word or look at the transcript at the Joseph Smith Papers:

Warren Parrish
Frederick G. Williams

:smile:
Kevin Graham wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2010 12:11 am
Dictation Evidence #3 - Abr 1:11
Book of Abraham - “Onitah, one of the royal descent directly”
Ms1a - “Onitah, one of the xxxxxx royal descent directly”
Ms1b- “Onitah, one of the xxxxxx royal descent directly”
Problem: xxxxx is an illegible word that was crossed out by both scribes

Proposed Explanations:
1. In our view, the speaker dictated the erroneous word first and then corrected himself after the scribes had already written it down.

2. In the Will/Hauglid view, the scribes were copying a source document and either (a) coincidentally copied the document incorrectly, exactly the same way or (b) they were told to make a xerox copy of an already error-ridden manuscript (meaning for some strange reason they decided they needed at least three copies of an error-ridden manuscript, from two different scribes)
_Shulem
_Emeritus
Posts: 12072
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:48 am

Re: KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

Post by _Shulem »

There is a third view in this instance, Kevin. Maybe they wrote down what was dictated and later after the work was done there was a mutual correction to reflect the same change on both documents.

Warren Parrish "for in his days,"
Frederick G. Williams "For in his days"

Also, note that Parrish used a comma but Williams did not.

:wink:

Kevin Graham wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2010 12:11 am

Dictation Evidence #7 - Abr 1:26
Book of Abraham- “and also of Noah, his father, who blessed him”
Ms1b – “and also of Noah, his father, xx xx xxx xxxx who blessed him”
Ms1b – “and also of Noah, his father, xx xx xxx xxxx who blessed him”
Problem: Both scribes wrote four illegible words before crossing them out and replacing them with the corrected text.

Proposed Explanations:

1. In our view, the text was dictated and the scribes were corrected in mid-sentence and the corrected text was placed in transition.

2. In the Schryver/Hauglid view, these scribes were copying from the same source document and either (a) coincidentally copied the text incorrectly, the exact same way or (b) were providing a xerox copy of an error-ridden document.
_Shulem
_Emeritus
Posts: 12072
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:48 am

Re: KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

Post by _Shulem »

William Schryver wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:14 pm
Had the correction been made "in transition" while the scribe was taking dictation, "unto" would attest the same tone and volume of ink as does the strikeout of "whereunto". It does not. Although it is obviously an error, "whereunto unto" was written without re-dipping the pen, in a single pass.
I agree with William insomuch that it was crossed out LATER. But after a dictation in correcting the transcripts together. I think Smith was dictating and said "whereunto" then paused and then said "unto" and the scribes faithfully wrote what he said.

Both manuscripts were made while Smith dictated and there is evidence to prove that. But I think the evidence also shows there was secondary emendations after the fact in order to make corrections.
_Shulem
_Emeritus
Posts: 12072
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:48 am

Re: KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

Post by _Shulem »

Holy William f u c k-cipher, Batman. I'm already in this thread starting at page 3.

I need to pull myself together.

What am I doing here?

Jesus.
_Shulem
_Emeritus
Posts: 12072
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:48 am

Re: KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

Post by _Shulem »

William Schryver wrote:
Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:16 pm
Hey, Paul, it's Friday night again! Yippee for you!

Bottoms up ...
Have a blow for your nose! Woohoo!

10 years gone by tonight.
_Shulem
_Emeritus
Posts: 12072
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:48 am

Re: KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

Post by _Shulem »

Paul Osborne wrote:
Sat Aug 28, 2010 11:08 pm
William Schryver wrote: Unfortunately, for your argument, Metcalfe has long been misrepresenting the evidence, and no one has ever bothered to verify his claims.

The first instance is not "son" at all. It is "sun." Indeed, what we're really dealing with at that locus is either another dittograph, or (if not a dittograph) merely a case where Parrish wrote "sun" poorly and therefore decided to re-do it. In any case, there is no "o" between the "s" and the "n". It is clearly a "u". It is not a case of homophonic mishearing.


And how is it you verify your claim, William? You’re asking me to take your word for it that the letter is a “u” rather than an “o” as viewed by some critical thinkers. I think you need to verify your claim and provide a photograph to prove you know what you’re talking about. It’s too bad the General Authorities have kept these documents under lock and key and refuse to let the members look at them.

Prove your statement, William. Then I will concede this point.

Paul O

William, are you still there? Hey, never mind. I don't need your fancy photograph to prove my point and discredit yours. Look at the Joseph Smith Papers:

handwriting of Warren Parrish

And it appears that Hauglid doesn't quite agree with you, William:

"Now the god of Shagreel was the son sun)"

Yes, the editing transcript says "son"

:biggrin:

Woo hooo, I win!
Philo Sofee
God
Posts: 5017
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:18 am

Re: KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

Post by Philo Sofee »

THE SINGLE greatest take down of Mormon apologetics on the Book of Abraham on the Internet. A fundamental correction of all the innuendo and bad arguments defenders of the faith have made. This DESERVES to be on the PINNED posts of Hall of Fame Threads.
Philo Sofee
God
Posts: 5017
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:18 am

Re: KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

Post by Philo Sofee »

Bumping to again invoke and demonstrate the actual discussions occurring on our board. POWERFUL discussions of evidence.
Philo Sofee
God
Posts: 5017
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:18 am

Re: KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

Post by Philo Sofee »

bump
Post Reply