DiscussMormonism.com

Among the many interesting things I've learned from apologists is that sometimes they need to correct the Church, which often doesn't know what it's doing. A fine example of this is William Schryver, who posits that the facsimiles from the Book of Abraham should be removed. Apologist theories also sometimes work their way into the rhetoric of General Authorities, such as the idea that chiasmus is allegedly evidence of the Book of Mormon's antiquity, or suggesting that there is some archaeological evidence of Book of Mormon civilizations.

I also have some suggestions for amending church doctrine. One unaddressed issue I have noticed is trying to reconcile the concept of free agency with lack of opportunity in mortal life. The Church teaches that baptism by proper priesthood authority is necessary for salvation. This way, God is both just and merciful---he still has laws about his kingdom, but people who didn't get the chance to follow those laws during this life can accept a vicarious baptism done by a living person on their behalf.

But surely this is not the end of free agency. Baptism of the dead is incomplete; it suggests that "take it or leave it" is the full range of options available. Why should we assume that deceased persons in the spirit world necessarily remain faithful to LDS teachings after accepting a vicarious baptism for the dead? This is precisely the issue I propose to resolve.

Untold millions of God's children are born, live their lives, and die without the opportunity to join the LDS Church and then at some point come to disbelieve its truth claims. How could God really allow free agency without a complete range of choices? Only by giving us free agency can God make all this work. If God's plan for his children is to be brought to fruition, then the dead who accept baptisms by believing Latter-day Saints and accept the teachings of missionaries in the spirit world must also have the chance to later reject those teachings and call b.s. on the historicity of the Book of Mormon, the Joseph Smith narrative, and so on.

I am willing to make that sacrifice on behalf of our departed brothers and sisters on the other side of the veil, and I invite other apostates to do likewise. By vicariously apostatizing on behalf of a person who did not have the chance to do so in this life, we can make the fundamental doctrine of free agency a meaningful part of God's plan. This week, I am being apostate for and on behalf of:

Edgar Allan Poe, who is dead.



As far as I am aware, the author of such works as "The Telltale Heart" and "The Fall of the House of Usher" never joined The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and consequently never lost his faith in it and apostatized. I will now be doing so on his behalf, so that he can have the chance to accept apostasy in the spirit world.

Please prayerfully and thoughtfully consider your efforts to become a member of and then reject the truth claims of the LDS Church in the stead of a person who didn't get to during his or her mortal life. But I've got dibs on the mighty Shaka Zulu for next week, so don't pick him.

Can a man do this for a deceased woman?

zeezrom wrote:Can a man do this for a deceased woman?

I think the official church position would be no, perhaps because "gender [sic] is an eternal part of our identity." However, since we are talking about apostasy, it would be consistent to apostatize for the dead in a way that is inconsistent with the Church's practices.

Nice one, DarthJ. What ordinance is involved in apostasy for the dead? Must you sleep with another man's wife without proper priesthood sanction or something?

The Dude wrote:Nice one, DarthJ. What ordinance is involved in apostasy for the dead? Must you sleep with another man's wife without proper priesthood sanction or something?

Since there is hardly any aspect of daily life that cannot be deemed sinful if you really look through what church leaders have taught, I think the main point would be your non-faith. Baptism is the ordinance required, since how can a man (or woman) apostatize from a church he (or she) has not joined?

Darn. I knew there would be drawbacks to apostasy while living. I won't be able to be apostatized by proxy when I'm dead. No one is going to get to think for meself and "sin" on my behalf after I am gone. I guess that just proves I'm a selfish bastard having apostatized in this life, before I die (but it has and will save me a lot of $ in tithing).

Darth J wrote:

The Dude wrote:Nice one, DarthJ. What ordinance is involved in apostasy for the dead? Must you sleep with another man's wife without proper priesthood sanction or something?

Since there is hardly any aspect of daily life that cannot be deemed sinful if you really look through what church leaders have taught, I think the main point would be your non-faith. Baptism is the ordinance required, since how can a man (or woman) apostatize from a church he (or she) has not joined?

I'm afraid it won't be enough for Edgar to appeal to your well meaning mortal apostasy without it being documented on LDS records somewhere. Why else is there even an organized Church? I think you should have to at least write a letter to Greg Dodge at the member records division, asking for name removal by proxy for Mr. Poe.

The Dude wrote:I'm afraid it won't be enough for Edgar to appeal to your well meaning mortal apostasy without it being documented on LDS records somewhere.

I don't know why not. My personal apostasy is not documented on LDS records anywhere.

Why else is there even an organized Church?

Ironically, the "why is there an organized church" question, framed more broadly as, "what are the priorities of an organized church," is what sometimes starts the apostasy process---at least in my case.

I think you should have to at least write a letter to Greg Dodge at the member records division, asking for name removal by proxy for Mr. Poe.

I see name removal as one of two things. Some people want to make a statement about their complete rejection of the Church, and that's fine. Other people do so for convenience, as you appear to be doing, so they will leave you alone. But you have managed to be apostate for a long time while still being a member on paper.

You see, I believe in apostasy by grace, not by works. As long as you reject the Church's truth claims, that is sufficient for apostasy.

I am ready to serve.

You present a serious question about ordinances, darth