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Zee,

Your recent threads have mentioned that you have discussed your feelings with your bishop and are not attending church today. I was curious if you have a thread on what actually happened, or if you do not current feel ready to share that? Did your wife and you decide this together?

I know that day for me was kind of exciting, and a little scary to be honest. It happened as a part of tithing settlement, which I had planned for a while. It was an interesting meeting, and the Bishop was very nice overall. I had been his financial clerk so we knew one another well.

It was an interesting meeting.

We discussed why I felt how I did, and I asked him directly how much he knew about church history. I let him bring up a couple of topics (MMM was first, then the lack of historical evidence for the Book of Mormon) and when he would tell me what he knew and how he felt it was a matter of faith, I would take one small step out past what he had said to see how he reacted. It was obvious he wasn't comfortable with that type of discussion. And, to be honest, my issues had nothing to do with him as a person so I didn't want to hurt him either. So I was willing to let is go at that. He asked how I felt about the church, if I felt to fight against it. I told him that I felt I had a lot to be thankful for having been raised in the church, and only felt that a better acceptance and openness about the complexities of church history would help members more than hurt them. I told him the attacks on SSM were a real problem to me because once it becomes clear that the LDS faith is a man-made institution, it becomes very clear that the arguments it uses against SSM are based on traditional misunderstandings about the nature of homosexuality (I avoided calling it bigoted).

In short, I wanted to avoid the fireworks but I wanted it clear I was leaving because of the nature of the church and not because I wanted to sin, was offended, etc.

I never heard from a member of that ward again. My wife did as the Relief Society president seemed to think I was the reason for our leaving, so I think my wife became a project for her. But I must have made it clear it was best not to talk to me about it.

Anyway, I hope it continues to work out for you. I know hard times are still to come with it.

Thank you honorentheos for your request. I'm happy to tell you how it went down. Note that I'm still in the middle of things so there is not an ending to this story.

I was getting to a point where I couldn't continue NOM because it wasn't sitting well with me. It was stressing me out. I was very, very afraid to go public for some reason. Now I realize it is not really that big a deal.

Just before putting the kids to bed, I formulated an email to my bishop. I sat and stewed over whether I should send it or not for a long time. Finally, I closed my eyes and pushed "send". Here is what I wrote:

Ted,

Rather than spend the time meeting with you and taking more time from your busy schedule, I thought it would be better if I just email you about this. I don't believe in the church anymore. I am not ‘offended,’ nor is there any worthiness issue related to my decision. I started questioning last December and have been convinced it is not true for a number of months now. I can't continue attending bishopric, PEC, and the other meetings anymore. I will no longer be attending or functioning in any leadership capacity and I inform you of this solely out of courtesy, so that you can move forward and replace my services as needed. I hope you understand that I cannot continue honestly attending while not believing any of it. At the beginning of 2010, I went through periods hoping it was true and talked to many people about it such as BYU religion professors and church apologists. Later on, after much study, prayer, and pondering, I realized for myself that I don't and cannot believe it at all. I figured it would be better to break away than continue "faking" it. I don't see a reason to sit and discuss this further as I feel at peace with what I believe as I'm sure you do about what you believe. I will put the copies of the agendas and Sacrament program (and church keys) on your desk before this Sunday meeting and will be happy to send the next executive secretary the necessary files and help them get started on what needs to be done. Please know that I thoroughly enjoyed our time spent together as friends and this decision of mine has nothing to do with you, the bishopric, this ward, or anyone in the ward. I hope people will be understanding of me and respectful of my beliefs without any personal feelings hurt in the process.

Thank you,

Zee

Nine minutes later, he replied to my email requesting that we meet. I ignored it and started putting the kids to bed. He called our house 3 times while I was reading to my kids about rhinoceroses. Then, very soon after the first email, I noticed a second email. I think he was panicking. He asked that we go to lunch the next day to talk about it. I replied with this:

Ted,

I truly appreciate the offer but I realized that it will not be helpful for us to talk this out. This has not been a simple decision nor a short-lived process for me. There is nothing that can bring me back and I feel it would be best if we set our spiritual feelings and beliefs to the side and allow me to take a break for a while. I also hope we can continue to be friends in the future but I cannot be actively involved in the church anymore. I think meeting and talking to priesthood leaders at this time would just make things worse. Please know I have deep respect for the time you spend in your work in the church and in your efforts to help other people. I have no hard feelings toward anyone in the church and hope my action does not cause undue pain. This is the stake I grew up in and my parents and sister's family both live in this stake. I grew up with the Stake President's and counselor's sons and know a lot of people here. I realize that my decision will create discomfort and maybe some embarrassment. I feel I have to take a stand and be honest with myself.

I've had conversations with many believers up to this point and none of the conversations have turned out to be beneficial. I feel that given some time, maybe an informal meeting with you might be a good thing as long as we are just meeting as friends. I hope you can understand my request and my stand I feel I must take.

Thank you,

Zee

The next day, he called my wife and got my cell number then started calling me at work. I eventually called him back and we set up a time to meet for lunch. I told him not to bring up my reasons for leaving. I didn't feel I was under any obligation to tell him my feelings on the subject. As far as I was concerned, the only thing he needed to know was that I was quitting and not for reasons such as being offended or immorality. He was cool about it at lunch and we pretty much just small talked most the time. I told him my wife was concerned people would start talking about us in the ward and he said he would do what he could to prevent mis-information from spreading.

He released me today (as far as I know) and I passed off all my duties to another guy. He also told his bishopric and auxiliaries that I'm gone for reasons I stated in my email. He said, "I will put that in my own words." I'm not sure what is "own words" are.... Oh well.

my wife and I worked this out before I made the big move. At this very moment, she is teaching YW but only went to church for this one single hour. The previous two hours, she and I made apple pie and cheese cake for my mom. Well, we started making them. I need to go roll out the dough and put the apples in the pie and cook it still. The cheese cake is almost done.... just cooking the blueberries now...

My my wife is very wise and an amazing person. I don't feel like elaborating on her thoughts except that she and I understand each other. I've had a renewed crush on that girl since my starting to question the whole LDS world so I guess you could say I was assisted down the slippery slope the same way Glenn Beck was assisted up the slope... She can post her feelings about my decision on the board if she wishes.

Tonight I might be confronting my father about this... We'll see.

zeezrom wrote:sweentess

very diplomatic...great job. I had 2 close friends make similar statements in the last couple weeks...awesome to see.

Very interesting. I had to read your posts outloud to be sure it soaked in properly.

You took the big step! Good for you. Do you think there is any chance the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 are true and correct? JUST KIDDING!

Paul O

Thanks for posting this, Zee. For what it is worth, I think you and your wife are an amazing couple and I wish you the best as this continues to unfold.

zeezrom wrote:. I've had a renewed crush on that girl since my starting to question the whole LDS world

I hear ya zee. I feel like I am getting to know her all over again (my wife not yours). This time I get to know what she really thinks and believes (and vice-versa) instead of the correlated minutia we have been regurgitating to each other for 15 years .
We have spent many nights up until 1 or 2 in the morning talking about our new world views and it has been the best part of my trip down the rabbit hole.
Black bras and panties is a close second.

Willy Law wrote:Black bras and panties is a close second.

Absolutely!

But I also agree with the first point. It is nice to be able to not have a script in our relationship. Man, that entire concept takes me back to some memories of weird talks with members in real life.

schreech wrote:very diplomatic...great job. I had 2 close friends make similar statements in the last couple weeks...awesome to see.

Thanks schreech. Interesting about your friends. Are they married with kids?

Paul Osborne wrote:Very interesting. I had to read your posts outloud to be sure it soaked in properly.

You took the big step! Good for you. Do you think there is any chance the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 are true and correct? JUST KIDDING!

Paul O

To be honest Paul, at first I was a little disappointed in finding that Facsimile 2 was not translated correctly. When I was a teen, I thought it was the greatest thing ever to know that the secret temple sign was right there in Egyptian. I remember reading and re-reading the words,

"Represents God sitting upon his throne, revealing through the heavens the grand Key-words of the Priesthood; as, also, the sign of the Holy Ghost unto Abraham, in the form of a dove."

I recall later in life as I hoped and dreamed of someday understanding what in the hell was going on in the endowment, I fell back on this representation as one of many revelations for me. I figured there must be a lot more Egyptian secrets yet undiscovered about the endowment ceremony. The only reason we don't understand it is because God has kept it hidden from us to try and test us.

Then I found an answer that made all too much sense: ithyphallic god Min.

Well, there was some disappointment but at least it was somewhat interesting to learn about Min.

honorentheos wrote:Thanks for posting this, Zee. For what it is worth, I think you and your wife are an amazing couple and I wish you the best as this continues to unfold.

That is very kind of you honorentheos. And next time you are in the Salt Lake area, PM me and we will go biking. Not much more unfolded at my TBM family get together last night except that my dad asked how I got the apple pie crust to be so flaky. I first told him it is very important that the butter is cut into the mixture at a cold temperature and also that the secret ingredient is used. "Secret ingredient?" he asks. I said, "yes, that is vodka." Everyone in the room stopped what they were doing and asked, "Vodka?!" I then told them the story of how I went into the liquor store with my little son who happened to be wearing a BYU shirt and my dad was not well pleased. I thought it was a safe subject since we are only talking about cooking here but the conversation didn't go much further. In fact, the entire night was spent talking about church related things. I'm so tired of talking about church. Golly, can't we talk about anything else? Thrice, I tried bringing up movies because everyone likes to talk about movies but those died off quickly. my wife brought up BKP and gays and that really got us going. Oh man, if you could have been there you would have really enjoyed it. I won't tell you what was said because it will send this thread into a tailspin.