Let me go back to my original statement about joy.
Here is my thought process:
The human is able to experience feelings he/she associates with the word joy. You can experience these feelings from certain conditions. These start to accumulate over a lifetime, some you recall better than others after the fact. The accumulation of these experiences and memories might have some value. If one religion had the ability to give people a greater accumulation, and people knew about this, they would all go join that religion.
Maybe.... That is my best shot but it is open for debate.
That is a religion of which I want no part. Nor should you. I think surveys will show that religious people are generally happier than non-religious (though I have no reference, and I don't really care if it's true or not. To me, this is irrelevant). But that is probably due to a greater sense of community, service, meaning in their lives. All of these "things" can be found lots of places.
Nope. If that's all that religion is offering than count me out. So, perhaps, I should never have commented on your thread. My apologies.
Hoops wrote:Nope. If that's all that religion is offering than count me out. So, perhaps, I should never have commented on your thread. My apologies.
As missionaries, we were taught to spread the good word that we know how to help people find true and lasting joy. i.e. Howard W. Hunter: "I testify that Jesus is the only true source of lasting joy, that our only lasting peace is in him. I do wish him to be “our glory now,” the glory each of us yearns for individually and the only prize men and nations can permanently hold dear. He is our prize in time and in eternity. Every other prize is finally fruitless. Every other grandeur fades with time and dissolves with the elements. In the end, just as in this Passover week, we will know no true joy save it be in Christ."
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)
I find that explanation of what you're offering to be offensive. And when I hear that clap-trap and nitwittery from my Christian denomination I am equally offended. And I've said so. Perhaps it's just me. I don't know.
Hoops wrote:I find that explanation of what you're offering to be offensive. And when I hear that clap-trap and nitwittery from my Christian denomination I am equally offended. And I've said so. Perhaps it's just me. I don't know.
This is all I know:
As an uber TBM I felt I had access to more joy (lasting joy- whatever that is) than non-mormons. Although, I questioned that often. Every time my mind would try to question it, I would push it away so as to avoid it.
I don't find it offensive, but rather not realistic.
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)
Hoops wrote:I find that explanation of what you're offering to be offensive. And when I hear that clap-trap and nitwittery from my Christian denomination I am equally offended. And I've said so. Perhaps it's just me. I don't know.
This is all I know:
As an uber TBM I felt I had access to more joy (lasting joy- whatever that is) than non-Mormons. Although, I questioned that often. Every time my mind would try to question it, I would push it away so as to avoid it.
I don't find it offensive, but rather not realistic.
I find it offensive because it is a string of religous sounding words that have no meaning. And I doubt any explanation was ever offered. They/you/some of my leaders expect others to buy it just because it "sounds" pleasing, but it has no real application to life (Joel Osteen comes to mind). They are hoping people buy it for the sound alone, not for its truth (since it doesn't have much in it).
A close friend of mine, former buddhist (ah I spelled that wrong) now liberal Christian said this about one of her priests: "Father Dave has a workable theology. One that makes lives better by making them less hungry, warm, sheltered, clothed, befriended." That's the true glory of Christ, in my opinion. I think we agree to a large extent.
Hoops wrote:A close friend of mine, former buddhist (ah I spelled that wrong) now liberal Christian said this about one of her priests: "Father Dave has a workable theology. One that makes lives better by making them less hungry, warm, sheltered, clothed, befriended." That's the true glory of Christ, in my opinion. I think we agree to a large extent.
At GC, the prophets tell the members that if they follow Christ (i.e. make others less hungry, warm, sheltered, etc) then they will find lasting joy.
What you are saying is you can find happiness there but joy is hard to define therefore, don't try to assign it to anything. Is that what you are saying?
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)
At GC, the prophets tell the members that if they follow Christ (i.e. make others less hungry, warm, sheltered, etc) then they will find lasting joy.
That's not what gives us joy. But that is a symptom of it.
What you are saying is you can find happiness there but joy is hard to define therefore, don't try to assign it to anything. Is that what you are saying?
That's pretty close. But let me put a finer point on it. It is NOT undefinable, but it is a Mystery. And a Mystery, as you know, is only defined from Biblical evidence/support.