Defenders: Why is "Joseph Smith" being a martyr so important

[_Paul Osborne]

All things point to Joseph being a martyr.

After what he said about the Facsimile No. 3 he probably figured science would catch up with his lies and the people would kill him.

I'm glad they killed the bastard. Joseph Smith was a Goddamn liar. Prove me wrong, Simon. I'll pay you $10,000 if you can show me the king's name and the name of the prince written in the writing as Joseph Smith the false prophet claimed.

Paul O

[_DarkHelmet]

If Joseph Smith were a fraud, he could have relinquished his roles as prophet, general and king of Nauvoo, subjected himself to public embarassment and wither away into obscurity. The fact that he maintained his profession of God-ordained prophet, etc. until murdered at the hands of an angry mob bolsters his claims.

Not really. The fact that David Koresh never denied that he was a prophet during the long siege on Waco doesn't bolster his claims in my eyes. The people who wanted Joseph Smith dead knew he wasn't a prophet. If he had told the mob "just kidding, I'm not really a prophet" do you really think that would have spared his life?

[_Paul Osborne]

. The fact that he maintained his profession of God-ordained prophet, etc. until murdered at the hands of an angry mob bolsters his claims.

It does no such thing. It only shows that he had balls and was willing to stick his neck out. People of all creeds and religions do that kind of thing. You Mormons think you can COPYWRITE any thing you want just so you can bear your testimony. But you can't copywrite the king's name in Facsimile No. 3. Joseph Smith was a liar!

All rights reserved.

Paul O

[_sock puppet]

No, his words were that he would be murdered in cold blood--not be a martyr.

In 1838, Joseph and Hyrum were sentenced to death. Joseph later said about the event:

As far as I was concerned, I felt perfectly calm, and resigned to the will of my heavenly Father.... And notwithstanding that every avenue of escape seemed to be entirely closed, and death stared me in the face, and that my destruction was determined upon, as far as man was concerned; yet, from my first entrance into the camp, I felt an assurance, that I with my brethren and our families should be delivered. Yes, that still small voice, which has so often whispered consolation to my soul, in the depth of sorrow and distress, bade me be of good cheer, and promised deliverance.

In 1843, Wilford Woodruff recounted Joseph Smith saying:

I understand my mishion [sic] & business. God Almighty is my shield.... I shall not be sacrafised [sic] untill [sic] my time comes. Then I shall be offered freely.

To the Nauvoo Legion in 1844:

I do not regard my own life. I am ready to be offered a sacrifice for this people; for what can our enemies do? Only kill the body, and their power is then at an end. Stand firm, my friends; never flinch. Do not seek to save your lives, for he that is afraid to die for the truth, will lose eternal life.... God has tried you. You are a good people; therefore I love you with all my heart. Greater love hath no man than that he should lay down his life for his friends. You have stood by me in the hour of trouble, and I am willing to sacrifice my life for your preservation.

Speaking to a guard from Carthage in 1844:

I am going to give myself for the people, to save them

William Clayton, describing Joseph Smith on his last visit with his family:

He appeared to feel solemn & though[t]ful, and from expressions made to several individuals, he expects nothing but to be massacred. This he expressed before he returned from over the river but their appearing no alternative but he must either give himself up or the City be massacred by a lawless mob under the sanction of the Governor.

All things point to Joseph being a martyr.

Did Joseph Smith have the choice presented to him to die himself or have the rest of Mormons slaughtered?

Did Joseph Smith have the choice of renouncing the first vision, the Book of Mormon, and his prophetic claims in order to save his life?

He didn't have either such choice. He didn't choose.

When Joseph Smith ordered the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor he caused the City of Nauvoo to pass an ordinance that was repugnant to the Constitutions of Illinois and the United States, and therefore violated the city charter from the State of Illinois. Then he declared martial law in Nauvoo, something which was reserved only to the governor in Illinois. These were emanations of his megalomania, not of his religious beliefs, along the same lines as the treasonous Council of Fifty, and its stated aims per the minutes kept for its meetings.

Illinois had given the Mormons a charter for a new city at Commerce, to be called Nauvoo, a refuge for the Mormons because of what had taken place in Missouri. Joseph Smith abused that charter and that city power. There is nothing in Mormon doctrine that required him to do so or suggested that he should do so. God told him to flee to Montrose, Iowa, and then further west to the Rocky Mountains. Joseph Smith was disobeying his god when he turned east and went back across the Mississippi River, to Nauvoo to surrender to the Illinois militia.

He was murdered in cold blood. Nothing more, nothing less. He certainly was not a martyr, and he certainly wasn't so much as a pimple on Joan of Arc's butt.

[_Blixa]

Why is "Joseph Smith" being a martyr so important?

This is the unsaid of Simon's thread, i.e., the "unconscious" of the text: that which it assumes, takes for granted and acts in accord with.

[_huckelberry]

The arguments about whether or not Joseph is a martyr point in my mind to the possiblity that a large part of the role is in the way the martyr is seen and received by followers. Mormons make of him a martyr and it does not mean much to try and take that away from them. On the other hand non believers tend not to see him as a that, a difference never to be resolved.

The suggestion that his dying shows his program to be real instead of fiction just does not strike me as being very strong. I doubt his role was all that easy to escape,especially if he was psychologically wedded to it.

I am uncomfortable with the suggestions that his death was sacrificial in some way. There are lines in DC 132 which might suggest something along the line of establishing covenant. Simon has pointed out suggestions along these lines. I am made uncomfortable with those associations but perhaps for believers it is like the martyr thing. Josephs death inspires them.

[_Dr. Shades]

That liar. Mormons are liars! All Mormons are liars!

ALL OF THEM! It's a wicked cult for liars!

[How many times must I tell you that you're not allowed to post when you've been drinking??]

[_why me]

Not really. The people who wanted Joseph Smith dead knew he wasn't a prophet. If he had told the mob "just kidding, I'm not really a prophet" do you really think that would have spared his life?

Not really. However, Joseph Smith could have gotten out of it much earlier. Why take so much flak for Sidney's book? He had to be a nut for sure if he were a fraudster. The fact that he went to the end and gave his life for the work, shows himself either to be a prophet or a very dedicated fraudster.

[_why me]

Because Sock Puppet, then you can hoist Joseph Smith up nearer to Jesus himself.

Bulldinkey. The Mormons did not create the martyr. But the mobs did. And he died too young...not even forty.

[_Dr. Shades]

Not really. However, Joseph Smith could have gotten out of it much earlier.

But if he did that he'd lose access to money, adoration, and women.

Why take so much flak for Sidney's book?

Because that was his livelihood.

He had to be a nut for sure if he were a fraudster. The fact that he went to the end and gave his life for the work, shows himself either to be a prophet or a very dedicated fraudster.

You can say the same thing about David Koresh.