Adam and Eve: Is there a line apologists won't cross...?

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_cinepro
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Adam and Eve: Is there a line apologists won't cross...?

Post by _cinepro »

For all the time I've spent online at MADB and MD, I'm rarely flat-out surprised by new arguments or information. In fact, I'm sure everyone sometimes gets the feeling that we're just having the same conversations over and over, so what's the point?

But there has been a recent thread at MADB that has surprised me like few have. In it, elgaunteloko innocently asks what I considered a somewhat naïve question:

Folks, in the last thread I opened, some people (quite more than I expected, actually) expressed that they took the creation story not as a hard historical fact but as a symbol. The obvious question now is, how literally do you take the genesis as accounted in LDS scripture to be? In particular, how much of the "Adam and Eve" story do you take as actually having occured?

(emphasis added)


Upon reading this question, I thought this would have to be the shortest, most one-sided thread in the history of discussion boards. As all LDS know, there are three events in the history of the Plan of Salvation that are so important, they are called "pillars". As described in this Sunday School lesson, the creation and Fall are two of them.

I'm long used to apologetic arguments that dance around admittedly peripheral issues like whether or not evolution was used to create Adam's body, or the scope of Noah's flood. But here, a questioner asks whether LDS could ever doubt the literalness of the story of Adam and Eve and the Fall. How could that be possible?!

But apparently, it is possible. Several LDS shared their doubts about the literal nature of Adam and Eve and the forbidden fruit/fall story (see posts #2, #3, #4...) Before the end of the first page, other LDS arrive to state the obvious: the story of Adam and Eve and the fall has to be literally true, or all of Mormon doctrine is in jeopardy. While the thread meanders off into discussions of evolution and Noah's flood, taken as a whole it becomes an excellent illustration of what happens when Internet Mormons meet Chapel Mormons, and how Chapel Mormons react when Internet Mormons go too far.
_bcspace
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Re: Adam and Eve: Is there a line apologists won't cross...?

Post by _bcspace »

the story of Adam and Eve and the fall has to be literally true, or all of Mormon doctrine is in jeopardy.


I don't think all of it has to be literal.
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_DarkHelmet
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Re: Adam and Eve: Is there a line apologists won't cross...?

Post by _DarkHelmet »

It is interesting that some Mormons would question the literalness (is that a word?) of the Adam and Eve story. Not only is it canonized scripture, and updated in the PofGP, it is also a cntral part of the temple endowment ceremony. I don't think any LDS "doctrine" is safe from revision. There is only one doctrine that matters, and once a month sacrament meeting is devoted to it, it is "I know the church is true." It doesn't matter what "the church" teaches at any point in time, all that matters is that the members KNOW it is true.
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_Runtu
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Re: Adam and Eve: Is there a line apologists won't cross...?

Post by _Runtu »

bcspace wrote:
the story of Adam and Eve and the fall has to be literally true, or all of Mormon doctrine is in jeopardy.


I don't think all of it has to be literal.


If I recall correctly, your theory of suspended evolution takes it as literal that there was no death until the Fall and that Adam and Eve were the first human spirit children sent to earth. I would imagine that those two parts have to be literal, or the story doesn't make sense.
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_Hoops
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Re: Adam and Eve: Is there a line apologists won't cross...?

Post by _Hoops »

AS it was explained to me one time - oddly, in a thread about Genesis - the literalness (it's got to be a word, two of us have used it now) can not be definitive because the Bible can only be trusted "as far as it is translated correctly". That is doctrine. Therefor, there is no reason to regard Genesis as literally true.

I disagree, however, for what it's worth.
_cinepro
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Re: Adam and Eve: Is there a line apologists won't cross...?

Post by _cinepro »

Hoops wrote:AS it was explained to me one time - oddly, in a thread about Genesis - the literalness (it's got to be a word, two of us have used it now) can not be definitive because the Bible can only be trusted "as far as it is translated correctly". That is doctrine. Therefor, there is no reason to regard Genesis as literally true.

I disagree, however, for what it's worth.


That raises another issue that is evident on that thread.

Internet Mormons seem to approach Church teachings with a "muddy river" attitude, where if they can show that an early source or scripture is dubious, then any subsequent teaching based on that source or scripture is equally dubious. So, even if a Prophet stands and says "I know by revelation that Noah's flood covered the whole planet", Internet Mormons will say that that belief still stems from a flawed, traditional reading of Genesis, so everything he says about the flood can be excused.

Chapel Mormons, on the other hand, believe that latter day Apostles and Prophets are primary sources when it comes to knowledge about the scriptures and the doctrine. Therefore, if there is an ambiguous story or teaching in the scriptures and a latter day Apostle or Prophet teaches about that story or teaching, then he has taught us the truth about how we should view that story or teaching. So while there may be different ways to understand the story of Adam and Eve, the fact that latter day Prophets have told us the story literally happened settles the question.
_Hoops
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Re: Adam and Eve: Is there a line apologists won't cross...?

Post by _Hoops »

Helluva way to run a religion.
_truth dancer
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Re: Adam and Eve: Is there a line apologists won't cross...?

Post by _truth dancer »

I do not see how any believing LDS can go with the Adam and Eve as mythology idea.

It is in scripture, (more than once), repeated by numerous modern day prophets, taught as literal since the restoration, and taught in the temple. Much of LDS doctrine and teachings rely on the story being true, factual, historical, and literal.

There really are no two ways about this.

Just keeping it real!

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_malkie
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Re: Adam and Eve: Is there a line apologists won't cross...?

Post by _malkie »

truth dancer wrote:I do not see how any believing LDS can go with the Adam and Eve as mythology idea.

It is in scripture, (more than once), repeated by numerous modern day prophets, taught as literal since the restoration, and taught in the temple. Much of LDS doctrine and teachings rely on the story being true, factual, historical, and literal.

There really are no two ways about this.

Just keeping it real!

~td~

Not disagreeing, but what do you think we are meant to understand when told that it is "figurative so far as the man and the woman are concerned"? (at least, pre-1990)
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_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

Hi Malkie,

It has been a while, (smile), but I was taught that phrase meant that Eve wasn't literally made from the rib of Adam. All the rest was real, true, and FACT! ;-)

Did you learn something different?

TBMs can chime in on this! :-)

~td~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
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