Post-mo virus...

[_asbestosman]

hahahaha!!! Oh, sorry....you actually BELIEVE that??

I just threw it out there as a possible reason you are treated like you have a virus. When you said that and Runtu responded, I recalled that talk. That's all.

My own view is that some apostates still do many good things. Some of them are mature enough to be polite to Mormons, or still maintain friendships while they yet reject some of the foundational claims. I don't know how common such a thing is, but I believe it's possible.

I'm really hoping you were joking, asbestosman.

Sort of--I thought it was a funny quote. I don't think it's a universal rule, but I do think that what Elder Packer said is true in the right context. There are plenty of apostates who really do want to spread their beliefs (or disease germs as Elder Packer calls it). In fact, from one point of view not only is it natural, but it's a good thing. If the church isn't true then why not spread the truth? Yet this very attitude from another point of view is seen as someone spreading apostasy, sin, or disease germs. It's only natural that the faithful would be cautious.

I get and in some sense agree with both points of view. However, I think ultimately how God will judge the person will based on that person's motivation as well as his or her effort at doing what he or she truly believes is best. I cannot judge that.

I also think that if you find that the other person will not be persuaded to your point of view, there comes a point at which one can drop the issue--at least for a while. Friends can disagree about minor things like which sports team is the best. They may disagree about important things like politics and still remain friends. Why not religion too? Maybe religion is somehow more fundamentally important than politics, but at the end of the day if you're not able to persuade someone, then at least your friendship can be valuable in and of itself. It may be that your continued friendship will do more to nourish seeds of respect for your views.

[_Tchild]

Gets a little frustrating though when TBM family takes on the holier-than-thou attitude with their testimony bearing and we are just expected to smile and graciously say thank you. I keep thinking a little glimpse into what's going on in my heart and my head (at least for very close family members) may help them understand me better. But I'll have to follow your lead on this one, I guess, because no one want to hear what we have to say.

I once had my next door neighbor giving me my monthly hometeaching lesson as I had one foot in my car door ready (and late) to head out to work. I literally listened to his 5 minute lesson with one foot inside the car door, the door open and a look of horror on my face.

Sometimes you cannot escape the unsolicited testimony bearer. Usually you suffer it, but you can counter it with a testimony of your own. It doesn't have to be religious or God related (if you happen to be agnostic or atheist), but if it is something from the heart, you are sending out your own power ray, cancelling out the Mormon's self righteous - intolerant testimony love bomb with the testimony of what the truth is to you.

I rarely use this powerful weapon, but I have unloaded it on a few sanctimonious blowhards with stunning success.

This is how it would appear to someone as you unleash this powerful weapon of self-righteous destruction on others:

[_zeezrom]

This is how it would appear to someone as you unleash this powerful weapon of self-righteous destruction on others:

I never did like those earrings.

[_Runtu]

I just threw it out there as a possible reason you are treated like you have a virus. When you said that and Runtu responded, I recalled that talk. That's all.

That was a good reminder. And for what it's worth, I didn't take your quote as offensive. (I'm only germy when I haven't showered.)

My own view is that some apostates still do many good things. Some of them are mature enough to be polite to Mormons, or still maintain friendships while they yet reject some of the foundational claims. I don't know how common such a thing is, but I believe it's possible.

Yes, some apostates actually have some decent qualities. I'd like to think I have learned to be polite to Mormons. Heaven knows I've maintained my relationship with my wife, though it hasn't always been easy. Besides my wife, my sister is probably my closest friend, and my disbelief hasn't changed that.

Sort of--I thought it was a funny quote. I don't think it's a universal rule, but I do think that what Elder Packer said is true in the right context. There are plenty of apostates who really do want to spread their beliefs (or disease germs as Elder Packer calls it). In fact, from one point of view not only is it natural, but it's a good thing. If the church isn't true then why not spread the truth? Yet this very attitude from another point of view is seen as someone spreading apostasy, sin, or disease germs. It's only natural that the faithful would be cautious.

I suppose for me isn't "if the church isn't true then why not spread the truth"? I figure that if it makes people happy and makes them better people, I have no right to interfere. After all, who says I'm right? I know, people like thews want me to despise the church and work for its downfall, but I have no desire to do that. People who aren't happy as Mormons would benefit from "the truth" as I see it, but then I don't see myself actively proselytizing unhappy members.

I get and in some sense agree with both points of view. However, I think ultimately how God will judge the person will based on that person's motivation as well as his or her effort at doing what he or she truly believes is best. I cannot judge that.

You're in a minority among believers on this board, I think.

I also think that if you find that the other person will not be persuaded to your point of view, there comes a point at which one can drop the issue--at least for a while. Friends can disagree about minor things like which sports team is the best. They may disagree about important things like politics and still remain friends. Why not religion too? Maybe religion is somehow more fundamentally important than politics, but at the end of the day if you're not able to persuade someone, then at least your friendship can be valuable in and of itself. It may be that your continued friendship will do more to nourish seeds of respect for your views.

That's what I had to learn. Once my wife and I figured out that we needed to respect each other's beliefs, we patched things up quite a bit. I don't need to persuade someone who doesn't want to be persuaded.

[_Lucinda]

Sort of--I thought it was a funny quote. I don't think it's a universal rule, but I do think that what Elder Packer said is true in the right context. There are plenty of apostates who really do want to spread their beliefs (or disease germs as Elder Packer calls it). In fact, from one point of view not only is it natural, but it's a good thing. If the church isn't true then why not spread the truth? Yet this very attitude from another point of view is seen as someone spreading apostasy, sin, or disease germs. It's only natural that the faithful would be cautious.

I get and in some sense agree with both points of view. However, I think ultimately how God will judge the person will based on that person's motivation as well as his or her effort at doing what he or she truly believes is best. I cannot judge that.

I also think that if you find that the other person will not be persuaded to your point of view, there comes a point at which one can drop the issue--at least for a while. Friends can disagree about minor things like which sports team is the best. They may disagree about important things like politics and still remain friends. Why not religion too? Maybe religion is somehow more fundamentally important than politics, but at the end of the day if you're not able to persuade someone, then at least your friendship can be valuable in and of itself. It may be that your continued friendship will do more to nourish seeds of respect for your views.

Wow, thanks asbestosman. I think you and I can agree that it's not our place to judge. I respect you for saying that and I hope that you treat people in your real life that leave the church with that respect.

[_Runtu]

Wow, thanks asbestosman. I think you and I can agree that it's not our place to judge. I respect you for saying that and I hope that you treat people in your real life that leave the church with that respect.

abman is a good man (at least he, like some apostates, can still do many good things). I'm glad to see him posting.

[_Lucinda]

I once had my next door neighbor giving me my monthly hometeaching lesson as I had one foot in my car door ready (and late) to head out to work. I literally listened to his 5 minute lesson with one foot inside the car door, the door open and a look of horror on my face.

Sometimes you cannot escape the unsolicited testimony bearer. Usually you suffer it, but you can counter it with a testimony of your own. It doesn't have to be religious or God related (if you happen to be agnostic or atheist), but if it is something from the heart, you are sending out your own power ray, cancelling out the Mormon's self righteous - intolerant testimony love bomb with the testimony of what the truth is to you.

I rarely use this powerful weapon, but I have unloaded it on a few sanctimonious blowhards with stunning success.

This is how it would appear to someone as you unleash this powerful weapon of self-righteous destruction on others:

Haha!! She would make a kick a** avatar.
I kind of feel sorry for your next door neighbor that he wasn't picking up on your social cues (one foot inside the car, look on your face), or that he was so concerned for your soul that he didn't mind ignoring the social cues.

[_sock puppet]

I've looked around at other boards that might be able to help with these questions, but I must admit, I like it here--I like you people. So for those of you who have walked away from Mormonism, I'd love some input:

Why do TBM family and friends act as if we have some sort of virus? They get close enough to say hi, how are you? but not close enough to know what's going on in our heads and hearts. Instead of "Lucinda, what's going on? What have you learned that is making you walk away from your life-long religion? Let's have a heart to heart so I can understand you." I get either hugs and smiles with pity in their eyes or, "Lucinda, I know this church is true. I know the gospel is true. I know this because it gives me peace. I know this because the spirit has testified it to me and I cannot deny it." Well guess what? I'm not asking anyone to deny anything. I actually have a lot of respect for other people's beliefs. I believed the same way as my TBMs do 5 years ago. But instead of bearing your testimony to me constantly, how about stepping out of your fear and asking some real questions?

TBMs are afraid that your rational thinking might be contagious. 'The horror, the horror.'

[_Runtu]

I would say it's more of a postmormon fungus or bacteria. Viruses tend to kill slowly, but a good fungus or bacteria can kill within minutes.

[_asbestosman]

Once my wife and I figured out that we needed to respect each other's beliefs, we patched things up quite a bit.

I think that is tricky express properly. I don't have much respect for certain beliefs such as, say, Scientology. I think it's utterly ridiculous. However, I can imagine being respectful of the moral codes and actions of individual Scientologists. I might also respect their level of dedication for what they believe in as well as their sincerity if they are sincere in their beliefs. I might show my respect by being as truthful about my views as they care to know. I wouldn't lie about my views on the religion. However, if I believe some good can come out of Scientology or at least good can be a part of it, I might at least be careful not to mock those beliefs.

By the same token, I think many will find my beliefs to be ridiculous. I would hope that if they find individual Mormons to be worthy of respect that they too would not mock our beliefs--and not just while we're within earshot. I don't mind people telling me why they find those beliefs to be ridiculous. What I do mind is the idea that I must somehow be less intelligent or less honest if I don't agree that such things are so ridiculous they must be false or that I'm otherwise defective or lacking for even considering that such things could possibly be true. If I don't agree with someone's assessment of rational thought, am I therefore irrational? Could not one of us simply be mistaken yet both of us generally rational (I think all of us are irrational on some points)?

Yet I think even mocking beliefs has its place. A good political satire can sometimes be the start of me seeing things in a different light. I'm not sure that works for religion though.