The religious experience vs. the experience of reality

[_Runtu]

This is where you guys need to distinguish between sexual orientation and behavior, they are not one and the same.

Which is why I asked him to clarify.

I still maintain that a life spent trying to avoid homosexual thoughts and behaviors will be painful and possibly short. I could decide today to end the sexual part of my marriage relationship and try really hard to stop having any sexual thoughts. I could fight the "temptation" and maybe even succeed in having a celibate life.

But I wonder why anyone would intentionally put themselves through that? As you said, a satisfying and uplifting intimate relationship is important to bonding, attachment, and commitment. What is the purpose for denying some people the opportunity for such a relationship?

Seems to me the impetus for gays becoming celibate or minimally procreational comes not from gay people themselves but from other people telling them their thoughts and feelings--not just the behavior--are wrong and should be overcome.

[_honorentheos]

The challenge is that this attitude is destructive for other people, such as the statistic Runtu shared demonstrated. For every person who becomes convinced that they should wish to change their behavior, how many others should we be willing to allow to take their own lives?

I like TAO as well, but when a person says they are unwilling to examine evidence that contradicts their view I don't feel obligated to enable that behavior.

[_TAO]

I think they can change their behavior (which includes thoughts, but not temptations). However, I cannot choose for them, and this technique is only useful for those who have already chosen that they desire to overcome their behavior (including nagging thoughts).

If a person doesn't desire to change, this technique is completely and utterly worthless.

So, the temptation (I hate to call it that) is still there, but they no longer think about it or act out. Is that what you mean?

Yes, essentially it becomes instinct to reject it.

[_Runtu]

He didn't say that HE thinks they SHOULD change their orientation. Doctrine aside, he's being perfectly honest in stating his own reasoning for the suggestion that he's made.

I know that. If people want to live asexual lives, that's their choice. I think that's a damn shame, but there it is.

I think where I got off track is that I attributed Mark's beliefs about orientation to TAO, which I again apologize for. Mark is the one who said that it is a universal moral code that homosexuality is wrong, and he made some statements that suggested to me that he thinks orientation can and should be changed.

It also didn't help that TAO made some disparaging remarks about my approach to sexuality and marriage right off the bat.

So, sorry for the misunderstanding. I think maybe I'll follow Mark's lead and get out of this thread.

[_TAO]

Oh, I know TAO. I know. That's the funny thing here. You are talking about behaviour vs temptation (such as eating or not eating while on a diet, or having sex before marriage vs waiting to marry) and the entire discussion on this topic in this thread has been that this is the root of the problem. I'm glad MFB shared the diet example, because it is actually fairly accurate - once you recognize what you are asking a homosexual person to do is no different than asking a human to completely change their diet and begin to eat bark and other cellulose wood fiber like a beaver.

One could say it makes a difference if the topic is selectively isolated to only those people who WANT to eat wood bark. But the point in this thread all along is that its the bigotry and bias of bad religious beliefs, unsupported by actual evidence or studies, that cause the self-hatred that pushes a person to think they should. Get rid of the underlying damaging beliefs, and suddenly the person doesn't have to fake it. They can eat the diet that they were born to eat.

Honor, I'm not going to lie to the people and say they won't be happy about their choices later.

That be my choice.

[_honorentheos]

So, the temptation (I hate to call it that) is still there, but they no longer think about it or act out. Is that what you mean?

Yes, essentially it becomes instinct to reject it.

You should read A Clockwork Orange.

[_Runtu]

Yes, essentially it becomes instinct to reject it.

Do you think the same approach can give you the instinct for heterosexual attraction? I'm really trying to understand.

Dammit, I said I was done. I'm done.

[Guest]

Delete. You are misrepresenting me but who cares.

[_TAO]

I still maintain that a life spent trying to avoid homosexual thoughts and behaviors will be painful and possibly short.

It's painful in a way, but in other ways, it actually makes you more happy.

I could decide today to end the sexual part of my marriage relationship and try really hard to stop having any sexual thoughts. I could fight the "temptation" and maybe even succeed in having a celibate life.

You most definitely could. If you had the willpower to do it.

But I wonder why anyone would intentionally put themselves through that? As you said, a satisfying and uplifting intimate relationship is important to bonding, attachment, and commitment. What is the purpose for denying some people the opportunity for such a relationship?

Lol Runtu, you aren't looking at it from the LDS perspective. From the LDS perspective, all those people will get a satisfying and uplifting intimate relationship 'up there', no matter if they get one here on earth or not.

And people put themselves through trials, so that they can get what they want. If someone wants to escape, they will put themselves through trials, and emerge, a man or woman, troubled no more.

Seems to me the impetus for gays becoming celibate or minimally procreational comes not from gay people themselves but from other people telling them their thoughts and feelings--not just the behavior--are wrong and should be overcome.

Runtu, I have a feeling you need to learn what it is like to put trust in the Spirit. I don't expect people to want to escape because I say so. I expect them, if they would like to escape, to have recieved instruction from the Spirit.

[_Runtu]

Absolute lies. I may be off the thread, but this is exactly why I am off the thread.

I never said that, and never would say that. I was talking about one's ability to change virtually anything about oneself if one wants to.

There is a deeper point here, but why bother if we can't even get this straight.

Maybe I misread you, too. I am sorry, Mark, especially that you think I would intentionally lie about you.