Mormonism and the Wizard of OZ

[_darricktevenson]

My message to Mormons is: STAY IN THE CHURCH! Because, if you lose faith in it, you'll probably lose faith in everything else. So, if the Church helps you be a better person, by all means stick with it.

I would liken the Church to the Emerald City in the Wizard of Oz. Clean. Most people very happy, because they are in a good situation, and have an all-knowing/all-powerful Wizard to protect them. Why leave?

As far me, I'm Dorothy, and my dog Toto has pulled back the curtain on the Wizard. Now, I could say, "OK Wizard, let's make a deal! I don't tell 'em you're just a guy behind a curtain, and you make sure I'm fat and happy here in Oz!" Well, Ed Decker did that. He actually asked the Church for a HUGE bribe, and he would stop preaching against Mormonism. Well, of course, the Church refused. Church leaders don't care if they lose 100,000 people a year through resignations, as long as they get 300,000 per year in converts. That's a gain of 200,000. It's all numbers to them. They "care" about their friends and family; not about the faceless rank-and-file. If one of their families members comes to them and says "I don't believe in Mormonism any more!" these men don't say "Go and pray about it?" (ok...they say that...at first) and they certainly don't pull down articles from FAIR! No! They say, "Would you like a job working for the Church"? Easy work. Decent pay! Easy hours. Great retirement!" That's how "they" handle friends and family who no longer believe in Mormonism. They "bribe" them.

Like Dorothy, I just wanna go home! Emerald City is nice and shiny, and all the people are well-dressed and appear happy, but...the Wizard is just a guy behind a curtain. I wanted to go back to Kansas. Now, Kansas is not anwyere as purdy is Oz, but its just much more REAL.

[_Quasimodo]

My message to Mormons is: STAY IN THE CHURCH! Because, if you lose faith in it, you'll probably lose faith in everything else. So, if the Church helps you be a better person, by all means stick with it.

Why would you assume that leaving the Mormon church would lead to losing faith? Aren't members of other religions faithful to their beliefs?

Why would you assume that being a "better person" relies on faith in an organized religion?

Are atheists and agnostics not good people?

Can individuals seek God without an established religion?

[Guest]

Interesting to make the comparison of Oz to the Church, and the Wizard to the LDS leadership.

That comparison is even more apt when considering the broadway musical, "Wicked"--especially, the following song, sung by "the Wizard of Oz," after Elphaba (the "wicked" witch, and main character) discovers that the wizard is, himself, a fraud:

Wizard:
I never asked for this,
or planned it in advance.
I was simply blown here by the winds of chance.
I never saw myself as a Solomon Or Socrates.
I knew who I was, one of your dime-a-dozen Mediocraties.
Suddenly I'm here, respected, worshipped, even
just because the folks in Oz
needed someone to believe in.
Does it surprise you, I got hooked,
and all too soon.
What can I say?
I got carried away, and not just by balloon.

Wonderful, they called me wonderful,
So I said, "Wonderful, if you insist.
I Will Be Wonderful" and they said, "Wonderful!"
Believe me, it's hard to resist!
Cause It Feels Wonderful, They Think I'm Wonderful.
Hey, Look Who's Wonderful, This Corn-Fed Hick
Who Said It Might Be Keen
To Build A Town Of Green
And A Wonderful Road Of Yellow Brick!

{Spoken:}
You See, I Never Had A Family Of My Own, So I Guess I Just Wanted To Give The Citizens Of Oz Everything.

Elphaba {spoken}: So You Lied To Them.

Wizard: Elphaba, Where I Come From, We Believe All Sorts Of Things That Aren't True. We Call It History.

{Sung}:
A Man's Called A Traitor
Or Liberator. A Rich Man's A Thief
Or Philanthropist. Is One A Crusader
or ruthless invader? It's all in which label
is able to persist.
There Are Precious Few At Ease
With Moral Ambiguities, So We Act As Though They Don't Exist.

They Call Me Wonderful, So I Am Wonderful.
So Much Who I Am, It's Part Of My Name,
And With My Help, You Could Be The Same.
At Long Long Last Receive Your cue Long Overdue.

Elphaba, The Most Celebrated
Are The Rehabilitated.
There'll Be Such A Whoop-De-Doo,
A Celebration Throughout Oz That's
All To Do With You! Wonderful,
They'll Call You Wonderful!

Elphaba: It does sound wonderful!

Wizard: Trust me, it's fun!

Both: When you are wonderful,
It would Be Wonderful! Wonderful, Wonderful!
Wizard: One, Two, And- ha ha!

Here's one blogger's reaction to the stage-musical, which is also relevant:

The musical Wicked is a musical that is all about challenging initial perceptions. Nothing in Wicked is really what it initially seems. The “wicked witch” isn’t really wicked and the scarecrow isn’t really on Dorothy’s side, amongst other surprising and integral plot points. The musical challenges the audience to reevaluate everything and everyone and to keep other people’s perceptions in mind. For me, one of the most important perception challenges of the production is the storyline involving the Wonderful Wizard of Oz, who turns out to be not quite what he seems.

Elphaba, outcast witch with green skin, idolizes the Wizard. When told my Madame Morrible that her talent is great enough that the Wizard would be impressed and like to meet her, Elphaba fantasizes in the song “The Wizard and I” about getting the chance to meet him and all his “Wizard wisdom” and how all of Oz will love her when she stands by him. She even fantasizes that perhaps he will have the power to “de-greenify” her. When Elphaba finally gets the chance to go the Emerald City and meet the Wizard she is ecstatic. Her enthusiasm, as well as the entire city’s worship of the Wizard, is expressed in the song “One Short Day.” The Wizomania Chorus sings, “ Who’s the mage / Whose major itinerary / Is making all Oz merrier? / Who’s the sage / Who’s sagely sailed in to save our posteriors / Whose enthuse for hot air ballooning / Has all of Oz honeymooning? / Woo-oo-oo / Wizn’t he wonderful? / (Our wonderful Wizard!)” The Wizard has built up a reputation for being generous, wonderful, and exceedingly powerful. Elphaba loves all these perceived qualities about the wizard, however everything changes and her perception is altered after she actually meets him.

When Elphaba meets the Wizard she is tricked into turning monkeys into flying monkeys to spy on the animals, who the Wizard wants to keep subdued. She is horrified when she realizes that the “Wizard” in fact has absolutely no powers and is doing bad needs. Everyone’s adoration for him and his power over the land are based on completely false perceptions of him. Elphaba is disgusted at being manipulated and vows to fight against the Wizard. Her false title as a “Wicked Witch” is designated to her by the corrupt government, and result in the Ozonians continued misperceptions of both her and their “wonderful” Wizard. In the song “Wonderful” the Wizard attempts to manipulate Elphaba and expresses that he kept up the act because he was worshipped and adored and called “Wonderful.” However, Elphaba does not fall for his sweet talk and instead sticks to what she believes in. Now that she knows who the “real” Wizard is she cannot be one of his subservient followers who listen to what he says and does blindly.

Ultimately one of Wicked’s most integral messages is that first perceptions are not always right ones. People need to be more thorough in their evaluation of people and situations before they make their final judgments. While Elphaba became known as “Wicked” the audience knows who really is wicked in the musical.

http://instructors.dwrl.utexas.edu/schneider/node/147

[_darricktevenson]

1) I think for many people organized religion is necessary, or they fall into things like alcohol, which leads to wife abuse, incest, etc. NOT that this doesn't happen with "good" religious people too.

2) I KNOW that with many Mormons who lose faith in Joseph Smith, they tend to lose faith in all religion, if not God too. A common psychological reaction.

3) I've found Agnostics to be no better or worse than Mormons. Some good/some bad. Atheists I usually find abit on the "Libertine" side and abit haughty and "I'm superior to you because I don't believe in God so I must be alot smarter than you".

4) Dr. Dahesh said the Atheist who does more good works than the Christian or Muslims will get a better reincarnation than they do. But, again, he didn't say Atheists DID more good works than religious types. My observation is that Atheists are usually very, very selfish people, even beyond Mormon selfishness.

My message to Mormons is: STAY IN THE CHURCH! Because, if you lose faith in it, you'll probably lose faith in everything else. So, if the Church helps you be a better person, by all means stick with it.

Why would you assume that leaving the Mormon church would lead to losing faith? Aren't members of other religions faithful to their beliefs?

Why would you assume that being a "better person" relies on faith in an organized religion?

Are atheists and agnostics not good people?

Can individuals seek God without an established religion?

[_emilysmith]

An article about a study was recently mentioned over at the MADhouse... newly to be designated mormondialogue dot something. I think it may dispel a lot of preconceptions about people who leave their religions. Unfortunately, I can't link it, since the site is down, but I'll try to sum up.

The researchers seemed to be interested in knowing if things like pedophilia or certain decisions by leadership resulted in a loss of faith. It turns out, to their surprise, that things like this have very little impact. About half of religious people in America change their faith at least once in their lifetime. Of that half, not very many actually become atheists.

Loss of faith tends to be a gradual process and leaving a church happens when that church isn't meeting the needs of the member. When the church is not meeting a member's needs, then their feeling about their church changes. Their rationalization for leaving may fall a number of ways, but it is a result of how they feel... it isn't usually something based strictly on evidence.

There is a term known as "confirmation bias" which refers to the tendency for people to seek out evidence that matches their own point of view. So if someone is out to gather evidence to prove the church right, they already believe it. If they don't like the church, then they search accordingly.

Then there is cognitive dissonance. Studies have shown that, for reasons not entirely understood, that people not only readily dismiss evidence against what they believe, in many instances they are unable to even comprehend it. It is a devastating combination when it comes to trying to reason with someone.

The departure from faith is a very interesting process to me. I don't think there are many people who understand it very well. Religious people, especially, seem to be at a disadvantage when it comes to understanding. It is easy to villainize and stereotype, but the flaw always comes from the point of view that the departed must have something wrong with them. It is yet another example of what lies beyond some people's ability to comprehend. darrickstevenson is no exception... making villains of atheists, claiming that religion prevents alcoholism and incest.

For the record, I know plenty of atheists who do more service for their fellow man than any LDS I ever knew. That is saying something, too, because my ward growing up made it a point to help out the community, at large.

[_LDS truthseeker]

Interesting to make the comparison of Oz to the Church, and the Wizard to the LDS leadership.

Interesting- thanks so much for sharing.

[_Quasimodo]

The departure from faith is a very interesting process to me. I don't think there are many people who understand it very well. Religious people, especially, seem to be at a disadvantage when it comes to understanding. It is easy to villainize and stereotype, but the flaw always comes from the point of view that the departed must have something wrong with them. It is yet another example of what lies beyond some people's ability to comprehend. darrickstevenson is no exception... making villains of atheists, claiming that religion prevents alcoholism and incest.

For the record, I know plenty of atheists who do more service for their fellow man than any LDS I ever knew. That is saying something, too, because my ward growing up made it a point to help out the community, at large.

Hi emily,

Departure from faith is an interesting topic (maybe worth a new thread if your up to that). For me, why people convert to a faith is the most interesting.

My own thoughts (no good facts or data to quote) are that people that are raised in a religion may find it very difficult to leave because a rejection of that faith could also be a rejection (maybe subconsciously) of their parents beliefs and thus a rejection of their parents. Psychologically a very hard thing to do.

But, why do people convert to a religion (I think I'm probably talking Mormon since we're on this board)? Is it a desire to follow the strong personality of a charismatic leader? The need for a community to belong to?

From an agnostic's point of view, it's a little puzzling.

[_The Nehor]

My message to Mormons is: STAY IN THE CHURCH! Because, if you lose faith in it, you'll probably lose faith in everything else. So, if the Church helps you be a better person, by all means stick with it.

How condescending.

I would liken the Church to the Emerald City in the Wizard of Oz. Clean. Most people very happy, because they are in a good situation, and have an all-knowing/all-powerful Wizard to protect them. Why leave?

Still condescending.

As far me, I'm Dorothy, and my dog Toto has pulled back the curtain on the Wizard. Now, I could say, "OK Wizard, let's make a deal! I don't tell 'em you're just a guy behind a curtain, and you make sure I'm fat and happy here in Oz!"

You overestimate your own importance.

Well, Ed Decker did that. He actually asked the Church for a HUGE bribe, and he would stop preaching against Mormonism. Well, of course, the Church refused.

So did he if this is true.

So you are trying to get the moral high ground by claiming you don't engage in blackmail? Wow.

Church leaders don't care if they lose 100,000 people a year through resignations, as long as they get 300,000 per year in converts. That's a gain of 200,000. It's all numbers to them.

No, it's not.

They "care" about their friends and family; not about the faceless rank-and-file. If one of their families members comes to them and says "I don't believe in Mormonism any more!" these men don't say "Go and pray about it?" (ok...they say that...at first) and they certainly don't pull down articles from FAIR! No! They say, "Would you like a job working for the Church"? Easy work. Decent pay! Easy hours. Great retirement!" That's how "they" handle friends and family who no longer believe in Mormonism. They "bribe" them.

No, they don't.

Like Dorothy, I just wanna go home! Emerald City is nice and shiny, and all the people are well-dressed and appear happy, but...the Wizard is just a guy behind a curtain. I wanted to go back to Kansas. Now, Kansas is not anwyere as purdy is Oz, but its just much more REAL.

Then I'd think you'd get over your fantasies and stop the railing and petty jealousy you spew here. But no, you're still in love with Oz. You may or may not fully believe it's a lie but you sure want to make sure LDS know how great you are for escaping.

[_Runtu]

Then I'd think you'd get over your fantasies and stop the railing and petty jealousy you spew here. But no, you're still in love with Oz. You may or may not fully believe it's a lie but you sure want to make sure LDS know how great you are for escaping.

We've all seen enough of Darrick's posts to understand where he's coming from. We don't need you poking a stick at him to clarify anything. Responding to angry rants with angry rants doesn't help anyone.

[_The Nehor]

Then I'd think you'd get over your fantasies and stop the railing and petty jealousy you spew here. But no, you're still in love with Oz. You may or may not fully believe it's a lie but you sure want to make sure LDS know how great you are for escaping.

We've all seen enough of Darrick's posts to understand where he's coming from. We don't need you poking a stick at him to clarify anything. Responding to angry rants with angry rants doesn't help anyone.

I'm not angry. I find his posts funny and hope he never leaves.

I know it doesn't help; it's just fun.