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Also reducing it to the point that only Horton can hear a Nephite.

ROFLMAO!!!! Or the person from planet Zerinus!!!

Runtu wrote:

MCB wrote:No need to discount the text. It all happened on the planet Zerinus.

cinepro once said that the purpose of Book of Mormon apologetics is to reduce the geographical footprint of Nephite civilization to an area the size of the book itself. But transferring it to another planet works.

In one of the threads over at MODIS discussing the disagreements between Heartlanders and Mesoamericanists, the conversation took an odd turn when I pointed out that the matter could be settled handily by a revelation to President Monson. Were he to stand in conference and spend a minute or two claiming revelation and then outlining some locations of Book of Mormon cities, the matter for all believing LDS would be settled. I also suggested that the more heated the arguments between the two, the more likely it would be for such a revelation to be given.

None of the apologists seemed to like the idea of that happening. Some protested that I was "telling God what to do", or that this was out of limits for things that can be revealed to a Prophet.

This seemed like an odd reaction to the idea of the matter being settled with knowledge from God Himself. I can only imagine the reasons why the idea of such an event wouldn't be welcomed by Book of Mormon geography theorists...

cinepro wrote:

In one of the threads over at MODIS discussing the disagreements between Heartlanders and Mesoamericanists, the conversation took an odd turn when I pointed out that the matter could be settled handily by a revelation to President Monson. Were he to stand in conference and spend a minute or two claiming revelation and then outlining some locations of Book of Mormon cities, the matter for all believing LDS would be settled. I also suggested that the more heated the arguments between the two, the more likely it would be for such a revelation to be given.

None of the apologists seemed to like the idea of that happening. Some protested that I was "telling God what to do", or that this was out of limits for things that can be revealed to a Prophet.

This seemed like an odd reaction to the idea of the matter being settled with knowledge from God Himself. I can only imagine the reasons why the idea of such an event wouldn't be welcomed by Book of Mormon geography theorists...

To finish cinepro's sentence, maybe the reason why it wouldn't be welcome is because it didn't happen.

On the question of receiving revelation directly from God, I have tried to pin down the TBMs on the MAD board before (BY RESPONDING EXACTLY HOW I WOULD HAVE RESPONDED WHEN I WAS A TBM) about God revealing knowledge to his church. For some reason, even though the TBMs believe that God is omniscient, they can't even trust him to tell them the date when Jesus was born in Bethlehem (was it April 6th or is this date wrong?). Strange.

cinepro wrote: None of the apologists seemed to like the idea of that happening. Some protested that I was "telling God what to do", or that this was out of limits for things that can be revealed to a Prophet.

This seemed like an odd reaction to the idea of the matter being settled with knowledge from God Himself. I can only imagine the reasons why the idea of such an event wouldn't be welcomed by Book of Mormon geography theorists...

One response I have seen is that the current state of evidence is "exactly where it is supposed to be". So anything we do not understand or disagree about is to be viewed as a test of faith rather than a signal we might be wrong.

I believe it gets even more difficult when hear all this "intentional distraction" by Peterson and Gardner about all this "supposed LDS scholarship"!!! It is their way, and the new way of Provo Pologists to attempt to draw away focus from the incredibly obvious problem they really have: "Is the Book of Mormon an accurate translation?". They can't say no because of the problems that would generate with prior claims!! But they don't want to admit it is when dealing with their "scholarship"! They need to have it both ways! They need to make the naïve believe that experts in any other field just can't read and understand a very easy reading. They need to make the naïve believe that experts in mesoamerican archaeology and history can't read a "supposed" historical translation and reach a valid conclusion without being dependent upon the opinions of a software salesman's opinion or the opinions of any other MST participant who reads the same original document!! That is the Achilles heel of all this "30 years of LDS "scholarship" argument that finds it's only traction at firesides!!!

Joey wrote:They need to make the naïve believe that experts in mesoamerican archaeology and history can't read a "supposed" historical translation and reach a valid conclusion without being dependent upon the opinions of a software salesman's opinion or the opinions of any other MST participant who reads the same original document!! That is the Achilles heel of all this "30 years of LDS "scholarship" argument that finds it's only traction at firesides!!!

Speaking figuratively, this is how I view the outcome of the battle of the souls of Mormons that FARMS (Peterson, Gardner et al.) and Meldrum's posse are engaged in:

13 And the blood of that great and abominable church, which is the whore of all the earth, shall turn upon their own heads; for they shall war among themselves, and the sword of their own hands shall fall upon their own heads, and they shall be drunken with their own blood.

(Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi 22:13)

From my vantage point, the hierarchy is confounded and troubled over this issue. They lose either way regardless of the victor.

The widow's mite has been allocated to the FARMS craft for years, yet TBM's (the tithe payers) have a tendency to favor Meldrum's faithfulness to the prophets and scripture.

What a dilema. Both cannot be right. Either one is right or both are wrong.

Perhaps Monson should put James 1:5 to the test on this one. It worked for Joseph Smith, right?

Inconceivable wrote:The widow's mite has been allocated to the FARMS craft for years,

Do you have any actual budget data to substantiate this assertion?

Inconceivable wrote:yet TBM's (the tithe payers) have a tendency to favor Meldrum's faithfulness to the prophets and scripture.

Do you have any actual survey data to substantiate your claim that faithful LDS favor Meldrum over "FARMS"?

Do you have actual arguments demonstrating that Meldrum is more faithful to the scriptures and the prophets than are those affiliated with "FARMS"?

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=2&id=805

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=2&id=806

Do you have anything to show that the prophets believe that Meldrum is more faithful to the scriptures and to their own teachings than are those affiliated with "FARMS"?

You claim that tithing funds have been given to "FARMS" for "years." If that is true, do you believe that it has been done surreptitiously, without the approval of the prophets or even against their wishes? If it has been done with their knowledge and approval, what does that suggest with regard to what the prophets think of "FARMS"? If that is not true, what does that suggest about what others should think of your assertions?

Daniel Peterson wrote:

Inconceivable wrote:The widow's mite has been allocated to the FARMS craft for years,

Do you have any actual budget data to substantiate this assertion?

Daniel,

Isn't there a building on the BYU campus that has a sign that says "FARMS" on it? Where does the electric bill get sent to?

Though the church is secretive about the amounts allocated, the hierarchy makes no bones about what they do with the money, "Tithing is used to build chapels, temples and schools", - not to feed the poor and clothe the naked. Otherwise they would have insisted I teach that as their ambassador while serving a mission.

Now, if the widow's mite is technically a Fast Offering, I guess you got me (rolling my eyes).

Sheesh.

No, I think Meldrum is pretty much on his own. Kinda bothers you guys that a virtual nobody can show up out of nowhere and demonstrate FARMS/MI as a fruitless tree without even mentioning the name.

Does it really matter who's corner the "prophet" is in when TBM's are seen rooting for your underdog opponent? I'm not rooting for anyone here. It's more like watching Tom & Jerry.

Inconceivable wrote:Isn't there a building on the BYU campus that has a sign that says "FARMS" on it?

No.

Inconceivable wrote:Where does the electric bill get sent to?

I know.

Do you?

Inconceivable wrote:Though the church is secretive about the amounts allocated, the hierarchy makes no bones about what they do with the money, "Tithing is used to build chapels, temples and schools", - not to feed the poor and clothe the naked. Otherwise they would have insisted I teach that as their ambassador while serving a mission.

And yet the Church does feed the poor and clothe the naked.

Which, although it is very good, has precisely nothing to do with the questions I asked you.

Inconceivable wrote:Kinda bothers you guys that a virtual nobody can show up out of nowhere and demonstrate FARMS/MI as a fruitless tree without even mentioning the name.

Where has this been demonstrated?

I guess you can't or won't answer any of the questions I posed.

Inconceivable wrote:Does it really matter who's corner the "prophet" is in when TBM's are seen rooting for your underdog opponent?

Are you withdrawing your unsubstantiated claim that faithful LDS tend to favor Meldrum more than they favor "FARMS"?

You seem to be ratcheting your claim down to saying that some do, without committing yourself to your former insinuation that more do than don't. But, of course, your more modest claim was never in dispute -- plainly, Rod Meldrum and Wayne May and Bruce H. Porter favor their position over ours -- and is trivial.

Dan,

So you are saying that because you might have more TBM's in your corner this week makes you legitimate? Whatever.

Fact is, there are TBM's out there that think you're a clown. Meldrum has gotten to them and there is nothing you've been able to produce to win them back. How's your boss feel about that?

This is a Book of Mormon megathread. Put whoever your boss's money where your mouth is.

Bring it (since you haven't as yet).