14 million Mormons and counting - MormonTimes.com

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_Inconceivable
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Re: 14 million Mormons and counting - MormonTimes.com

Post by _Inconceivable »

cafe crema wrote:So if someone says they are Catholic that is questionable because... you know what a real Catholic is and can determine when a person is mistaken in their understanding of themselves?


cafe,

Some people really don't know who they belong to. Let me illustrate:

One evening while tracting we came across two Vietnamese immigrants. We taught them the first discussion in broken english/vietnamese and, per the mission rule, we challenged them to baptism. The spirit was very strong and they immediately agreed to it. We were "jacked" (excited - as the Utah missionaries used to say).

After the closing prayer, they offered us tea and showed us some photographs they were demonstrably very proud of. Low and behold, there they were, dressed in white with the elder that had baptised them a few years before.
_Polygamy-Porter
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Re: 14 million Mormons and counting - MormonTimes.com

Post by _Polygamy-Porter »

why me wrote:
harmony wrote:Numbers don't make lies true.


So says my favorite temple recommend holder. :=) Lies anyone?

“F” off douche bag.

She paid the temple dues(tithing) so guess what? She gets to go in.
New name: Boaz
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_Polygamy-Porter
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Re: 14 million Mormons and counting - MormonTimes.com

Post by _Polygamy-Porter »

Inconceivable wrote:
After the closing prayer, they offered us tea and showed us some photographs they were demonstrably very proud of. Low and behold, there they were, dressed in white with the elder that had baptised them a few years before.
Oh my god this is good.

Wow.

The unwitting leading the unwitting...
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_cafe crema
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Re: 14 million Mormons and counting - MormonTimes.com

Post by _cafe crema »

Inconceivable wrote:Why me,

Wouldn't you be counted as a catholic if they only looked at activity?


How would they know to count him unless he said he was a member? I doubt Whyme has gone to this length at the church he claims to attend. And even then Catholic churches don't keep track of an individuals attendance, no sign in or, looking for who does or doesn't show up. The closest the church come to keeping track of attendance is if you are registered member the church will give you envelopes to make your Sunday offering. Of course you need not use them, you can simply put your offering in the basket, openly or in an envelope of your own, thus thwarting any tracking of your attendance. Using the envelopes provided by the church does have the benefit of being proof of your charitable donations come tax time but use of them is not considered an indication of your "activity" level in the church.

Again on tracking "activity" most churches I have attended have 5 Masses and, making it even more difficult to "look at activity" you can attend what ever Catholic church suits you, so it would be hard to track. I don't know how the Catholic church, counts members overall, but I do know that my parish (and the surrounding ones) publishes the number of registered families. So at least in mine, unless he registers he would not be counted, and if he was registered and only attended at Christmas and Easter he would still be counted as a parishioner.
The LDS church has the ability to report active participation in their church, and they don't, the Catholic church is also able to track active participation, as far as Mass attendance (not who attends but how many) and they don't report it either.
_Baker
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Re: 14 million Mormons and counting - MormonTimes.com

Post by _Baker »

cafe crema wrote:
Baker wrote:Outside of the Mormon corridor, I don't believe any comparison to Catholics is all that meaningful. Catholic is much more of a long-established cultural identity, as well as religious. Accordingly, even while attendance percentages are way lower for Catholics, and likely professions of faith as well, my guess is that the self-identification percentage is still pretty high. I saw this as a missionary in France.


So if someone says they are Catholic that is questionable because... you know what a real Catholic is and can determine when a person is mistaken in their understanding of themselves?


Wtf? I made a very simple point - which was that self-identification as Catholic is found among a greater percentage of non-practicing Catholics than is self-identification as Mormon among those non-practicing outside the corridor. I don't have any interest in assessing anyone's right to religiously self-identify however s/he chooses.
"I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. ... Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I." - Joseph Smith, 1844
_Buffalo
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Re: 14 million Mormons and counting - MormonTimes.com

Post by _Buffalo »

On my mission they had finally stopped with the soccer baptisms (dunk unwitting 8 year old kids in exchange for playing soccer), but there were still a lot of junk baptisms - baptisms of teenagers and kids after a week (instead of a few hours) of being pressured, and never coming back the next week. This was the direct result of pressure for high "sales" volume from the top. Our mission presidents weren't bad men, but they had the same pressure we did for numbers. Hence, many junk baptisms.

Actually, in the long run, junk baptisms aren't so bad. These kids never really self-identify as Mormons and avoid becoming indoctrinated with some of the damaging beliefs of Mormonism. And then Salt Lake gets to brag about its numbers in conference. Win-win.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

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_Chap
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Re: 14 million Mormons and counting - MormonTimes.com

Post by _Chap »

why me wrote:This kind of thread is so predictable. First the numbers are growing. But the critic box just can not accept that the lds church is growing. It is the same on postmo. All are predicting the mass exodus from the lds church and yet, the numbers do not confirm such a trend.


If we are to ask whether 'the numbers are growing' or not, let us start with some reliable numbers from an impartial source, shall we? And let's just concentrate on the US, where the data are likely to be of rather higher quality than (say) mission reports from Ghana. Follow me on this, and see if there is a flaw ...

The survey referred to in the linked thread (American Religious Identification Survey (ARIS 2008) - first noticed by Cinepro on this board) surveyed a large sample of people in the US by asking them what religion, if any, they belonged to. Now that is a pretty generous way of estimating religious affiliation: it would catch many Catholics who haven't been to church since the last wedding in their family, and many LDS who haven't been to sacrament meeting, let alone the temple, since their parents last took them as kids. The only people who are excluded are those who don't even want to call themselves LDS any more, whatever the Church Records Office may say. Fair enough, isn't it?

Counting that way, we can find the following as the best estimates of self-identified LDS in two years:

1990: 2,487,000
2008: 3,158,000

Wonderful - numbers are growing!!

BUT WAIT: for a start, in those two years US population was:

1990: 175,440,000
2008: 228,182,000

[This increase is partly natural population growth, partly immigration - there were close to 19,000,000 legal immigrants alone in this period - see here for government data]

Do the math: as percentages of the US population, the self-identifying LDS in each year were:

1990: 100*(2,487,000)/(175,440,000)% = 1.4% to two figures
2008: 100*(3,158,000)/(228,182,000)% = 1.4% to two figures

So it looks as if the CoJCoLDS is just about growing fast enough to keep its share of the US population, but no more. Awesome, no? Well, better than some religions, like the Methodists and Lutherans, who are losing share.

BUT WAIT (AGAIN):

the numbers of ANY religion where the members are not vowed to celibacy are bound to increase if more people are born into families of that religion than die in such families.

Fortunately, (see above) it is known that in Utah (a pretty representative place from the LDS family point of view), the natural population growth rate (births minus deaths) in 2006 was 13.8 per 10,000, or 1.38% per year (By contrast, the average US births minus deaths rate was 0.56% per year). If I was to try to estimate the actual Utah LDS natural population growth rate (birth rate - death rate), then if only 70% of the Utah population is LDS and the other 30% are assumed to have the overall US nattural growth rate, we may write this equation, the LDS growth rate being M:

0.7*M + 0.3*5.6/1000 = 13.8/1000
-> 0.7*M = (13.8 - 0.3*5.6)/1000
-> 0.7*M = 12.12/1000
-> M = 17.31/1000, say 17.3/1000 to two figures

So for LDS, to get from one year to the next we should multiply population by 1.0173.

Let's apply that to the figures above: if we start with 2,487,000 self-identified LDS in 1990, and let it grow at the LDS population growth rate for 18 years, that predicts the following number of people in 2008 who should self-identify as LDS:

2,487,000 * (101.73)*(101.73) and so on 18 times, or more shortly 2,487,000*(1.0173)^18

That gives us 3,387,000 to the nearest thousand.

(if we had been more conservative and used 1.017, we would have got 3,369,000)

BUT WAIT - in fact the 2008 survey only found 3,158,000 self-identifying LDS, which is 229,000 LESS than simple family growth should have produced. (211,000 using the conservative growth figure).

So in fact the CoJCoLDS in 2008 had many thousands fewer people in it than one would have expected if no-one joined the LDS church from outside, and we relied on family growth alone. Something is canceling out the effect of big LDS families, and it can only be the number of people who leave the church to the extent that they cease to identify themselves as LDS. In the period in question (1990-2008), it looks as if about 229,000 to 211,000 left the CoJCoLDS in that sense.

BUT WAIT ... that is the figure we get if we ignore the fact that some people every year join the CoJCoLDS by conversion (they do, don't they?) ... so in reality MORE than 229,000 to 211,000 must have left, if that is the number after conversions have partially topped up the loss.

Conclusions:

1. The only reason that the CoJCoLDS has maintained its position (not increased it) as a proportion of the US population is that its members currently have a lot more babies than most other US families, and those babies tend to get fed into the church. Once the baby tap stops gushing, then what?

2. It seems that more US adults choose to leave the church than choose to join it.


Hard evidence-based discussion of what world LDS numbers may or may not mean will have to wait until we have similar data to the ARIS survey on a world scale. But for the heartland, the picture seems clear, doesn't it?
Zadok:
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Maksutov:
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Re: 14 million Mormons and counting - MormonTimes.com

Post by _harmony »

why me wrote:
harmony wrote:Numbers don't make lies true.


So says my favorite temple recommend holder. :=) Lies anyone?


My point, which you obvioiusly missed, whyme, is that lies are lies, no matter how many people believe the lies. (I find it interesting that you missed that, since it supports the LDS church, not the Catholics)
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Chap
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Re: 14 million Mormons and counting - MormonTimes.com

Post by _Chap »

I'd like to hear whyme's reaction to the numbers - in the US, which is probably the only large sample of reliable data on this question, the numbers of self-identifying LDS are increasing, but, as shown above, only because they have more babies than average Americans, and even then they are apparently growing less fast than they would if they converted more adults than they lost.

As it is, they are only just succeeding in maintaining their percentage of the US population of self-identified religious believers: 1.4%.

A 1.4% share means that only one person in 72 is willing, when asked, to say "I am LDS/Mormon". And that number did not change from 1990 to 2008.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Runtu
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Re: 14 million Mormons and counting - MormonTimes.com

Post by _Runtu »

harmony wrote:My point, which you obvioiusly missed, whyme, is that lies are lies, no matter how many people believe the lies. (I find it interesting that you missed that, since it supports the LDS church, not the Catholics)


To quote George Costanza, "It's not a lie if you believe it."
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
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