DiscussMormonism.com

wenglund wrote:I am amazed to what lengths some people will ignore the obvious, and I am at a loss to understand why.

You realize, of course, the irony of this statement?

brade wrote: So, here's what's curious to me. If this is the substance of truth, then, even if it is right to say of somebody that disagrees with you that they've failed at growing in Mormonism, so what?

The intent of the analogy isn't to argue who may or may not have the truth, nor is it intended to try and convince former members that they are mistaken and should return to the Church. I respect their decisions and wish them well on their new faith journey.

Rather, what I am attempting is encouragement for some former members to realign their thinking with the conventions of reasoned discourse. Specifically, I am hoping to get them to accept the rational notion that faithful members of the Church, and for whom the Church has worked as intended, are in a better postion to know best about their workable faith than those who have lost LDS faith and for whom the LDS faith hasn't worked--and this just as it makes sense for me to consider (which I doe) that they know better than me about their new-found faith and what works for them.

In short, it is about common-sensically letting each side have priority in speaking for themselves about their respective beliefs and what works in terms of their beliefs.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Before some of the good folks here dismiss faith entirely out of hand, they would be doing themselves a favor to realize that the vast majority of their secular lives operate on faith--particularly in terms of their relationships with other humans.

What I am cautioning against is people unwittingly knocking done much of the infrastructure of their own world view.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

wenglund wrote:Before some of the good folks here dismiss faith entirely out of hand, they would be doing themselves a favor to realize that the vast majority of their secular lives operate on faith--particularly in terms of their relationships with other humans.

What I am cautioning against is people unwittingly knocking done much of the infrastructure of their own world view.

Isn't such faith based on a great deal of prior evidence?

wenglund wrote:In some respects this strikes me as so counter-intuitive as to begger belief. Certainly, in terms of workability the practicioner for whom it works can't help but know more, particularly in terms of making it work and grasping what it is like for it to work, than the practicioner for whom it didn't work.

Did that really make sense in your head when you were typing it? The Santa Claus/Ester bunny myths "work" for millions of children...do they "know more" than those children who no longer believe? Or how about the millions of Mormons out there that it "worked" for at one time? Are you saying that only people who somehow make it work today "know more" than those of us who it used to work for? If it no longer "works" for you tomorrow, could we then consider you less knowledgeable than the new convert who is still on their "milk" stage if that "works" for them?

Does this work for all religions/cults? Do former scientoligists, who made it through the top levels only to leave the organization after realizing its a scam, know less than the suckers who just walked in the door last week?

Edit: high-school/blood-letting/voodoo no longer "work" for most intelligent adults...do "practicioners"[sic] and participants of these institutions/beliefs "know" more than those of us who have moved beyond the 12th-grade and ignorant, middle-aged, superstitious medical practices?

wenglund wrote:Before some of the good folks here dismiss faith entirely out of hand, they would be doing themselves a favor to realize that the vast majority of their secular lives operate on faith--particularly in terms of their relationships with other humans.

What I am cautioning against is people unwittingly knocking done much of the infrastructure of their own world view.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Or what bad thing could happen?

wenglund wrote:Before some of the good folks here dismiss faith entirely out of hand, they would be doing themselves a favor to realize that the vast majority of their secular lives operate on faith--particularly in terms of their relationships with other humans.

What I am cautioning against is people unwittingly knocking done much of the infrastructure of their own world view.

I wasn't aware anyone was.

I think schreech's statement hear goes nicely with my anaolgy.

Did that really make sense in your head when you were typing it? The Santa Claus/Ester bunny myths "work" for millions of children...do they "know more" than those children who no longer believe? Or how about the millions of Mormons out there that it "worked" for at one time? Are you saying that only people who somehow make it work today "know more" than those of us who it used to work for? If it no longer "works" for you tomorrow, could we then consider you less knowledgeable than the new convert who is still on their "milk" stage if that "works" for them?

Have fun studying Alchemy. :)

wenglund wrote:Before some of the good folks here dismiss faith entirely out of hand, they would be doing themselves a favor to realize that the vast majority of their secular lives operate on faith--

What you're saying is that when you were eight or so, sitting on your father's lap, you held the steering wheel of his old Ford jalopy and imagined yourself driving. From that day forward you have been convinced that Fords are the best vehicle on earth. Every time you look at another make of car, your first impressions push out any comparisons and you're further convinced that indeed, Fords are best.

You prejudice keeps you from looking with any kind of appreciation at any other make of car, your mind has already been made up. You view your belief as faith and convince yourself that other's opinions are poor judgement. If you ever meet a previous Ford owner that has switched to another make of car you convince yourself that they just didn't stick with the same kind of faithfulness that you exhibit. You even deride their decision.

Good luck with your old Ford.

wenglund wrote:Before some of the good folks here dismiss faith entirely out of hand, they would be doing themselves a favor to realize that the vast majority of their secular lives operate on faith--particularly in terms of their relationships with other humans.

What I am cautioning against is people unwittingly knocking done much of the infrastructure of their own world view.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Nah, That's sophism.

wenglund wrote:I made the following controversial comment in a thread in the Terrrestrial Forum:

It always amuses me when those who have flunked the test of faith, and for whom faith has not worked, think they understand faith better than those who continue to pass the tests of faith and for whom faith has worked.

Up is down, and down is up--speaking of what doesn't work.

Rather than derail that thread further, we can discuss it here.

At the outset I should clarify that the faith I had in mind was the LDS faith, and that the test would consists of continued growth in LDS faith unto the realization of the ultimate objective of the LDS faith--i.e. becoming like Christ, unto a fulness of joy and love in eternal familial relations.

Flunking that test, then, would consist of discontinued growth in LDS faith and/or loss of LDS faith.

With these clarifications now in place, I am open to hearing and civilly discussing your opposing views.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

At the risk of compromising the present activity in the Celestial Forum of active LDS, simply by showing up here, I just have to confront Wade, as he well knows I might, about just how his ultimate objective somehow warrants faith.

I have preached online for almost twenty years about the real LDS gospel, only to be cast out of Fair, and its children a dozen times for being incontestably correct yet highly critical of standard LDS notions of gospel applications.

I am no longer a free range LDS reformer. Be that as it may, I would like to see Wade and company squirm or quit the field for the umpteenth time. Aping Christ's example is NOT his gospel. Never has been and never will be and shows no faith at all. What it shows is arrogance and conceited ignorance if not patent indifference to all that Jesus Christ said and commanded. Thus it proves that the LDS who follow this perversion to have absolutely no faith at all. Except the faith in their own way and faith in the expectation to carry off their masquerade skillfully forever. Well, at least in this life.

You are not a Christian if you ignore and trample upon what Christ commanded for his gospel. Come unto Christ as a little child,(with a blank slate, this truly honors the Lord with the appropriate fear and respect due the Great God) in meekness and repent. Take his name upon you with full purpose of heart. Take no thought for your life while you seek FIRST the kingdom of God and his righteousness. Wait for the promise of the Father which is the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost. IF it happens THEN you have true faith. If you do not obtain the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost repeat the commandments of Christ until you do them with out hypocrisy.

How long will the Gentiles monkey around with their obligation and commandment to become a Zion people? Do you really think your excellence and wealth and making your religion in your own image and after the likeness of the world is going to count for anything when the Lord returns?