DiscussMormonism.com

I made the following controversial comment in a thread in the Terrrestrial Forum:

It always amuses me when those who have flunked the test of faith, and for whom faith has not worked, think they understand faith better than those who continue to pass the tests of faith and for whom faith has worked.

Up is down, and down is up--speaking of what doesn't work.

Rather than derail that thread further, we can discuss it here.

At the outset I should clarify that the faith I had in mind was the LDS faith, and that the test would consists of continued growth in LDS faith unto the realization of the ultimate objective of the LDS faith--i.e. becoming like Christ, unto a fulness of joy and love in eternal familial relations.

Flunking that test, then, would consist of discontinued growth in LDS faith and/or loss of LDS faith.

With these clarifications now in place, I am open to hearing and civilly discussing your opposing views.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Passing the test of faith = flunking the test of reason.

wenglund wrote:Rather than derail that thread further, we can discuss it here.

At the outset I should clarify that the faith I had in mind was the LDS faith, and that the test would consists of continued growth in LDS faith unto the realization of the ultimate objective of the LDS faith--i.e. becoming like Christ, unto a fulness of joy and love in eternal familial relations.

Flunking that test, then, would consist of discontinued growth in LDS faith and/or loss of LDS faith.

With these clarifications now in place, I am open to hearing and civilly discussing your opposing views.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I would suggest that becoming like Christ and having a fulness of joy and love in eternal familial relations does not require faith in the LDS faith. If one finds that the LDS church hinders such things, it is not a failure to move on to a faith that actually does bring joy and love to your family. In fact, staying within the same patterns that do not work for you would seem the epitome of failure.

Are we limited to your definition of "test of faith" in this discussion?

Fence Sitter wrote:Are we limited to your definition of "test of faith" in this discussion?

Let's examine that definition:

At the outset I should clarify that the faith I had in mind was the LDS faith, and that the test would consists of continued growth in LDS faith unto the realization of the ultimate objective of the LDS faith--i.e. becoming like Christ, unto a fulness of joy and love in eternal familial relations.

In other words, it's a given that the ultimate objective of the LDS faith is "becoming like Christ, unto a fulness of joy and love in eternal familial relations."

Flunking that test, then, would consist of discontinued growth in LDS faith and/or loss of LDS faith.

And, by extension, not becoming like Christ, not having "a fulness of joy and love in eternal familial relations."

Wade seems to see the church as a priori true, so those who do not meet the above goals have failed. Disbelief is just part of the equation.

Wade, by your definition of "flunking the test of faith", would you consider a convert to Mormonism to have flunked at their "test of faith" by leaving their respective religion?

Is Mormonism comprised mostly by those who have failed at faith (its converts)?

Wade, I think when you can see the Mormon convert and the ex-LDS believer as nothing more than different sides of the same coin, you can answer your own question. Faith isn't static, but rather a vibrant, fluid and changing subjective experience.

Buffalo wrote:Passing the test of faith = flunking the test of reason.

Is this a tacit agreement with what I said? (I ask because I am not sure how your comment directly relates to the specific topiic of this thread.)

Thanlks, -Wade Englund-

Runtu wrote: I would suggest that becoming like Christ and having a fulness of joy and love in eternal familial relations does not require faith in the LDS faith.

That is fine for you. What we are discussing here is what I said and meant, and whether from my perspective my statement may be viewed as incorrect or unwarranted.

If one finds that the LDS church hinders such things, it is not a failure to move on to a faith that actually does bring joy and love to your family. In fact, staying within the same patterns that do not work for you would seem the epitome of failure

From the perspective of the one doing the moving, that may be correct. But, that is a separate issue from what I am saying.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Fence Sitter wrote:Are we limited to your definition of "test of faith" in this discussion?

If one wishes to object to what I said, then it would make sense address my statement as I define it. If you wish to proffer your own point of view, then you are not so limited.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I would think that someone who has tasted faith and has lost faith would have a much greater appreciation and understanding of what faith really is. That being a hope that the things in which they believe are true. Perhaps those who refuse to test their faith, test the assumption that they might be wrong are actually flunking the test because they failed to show up for the test.