"The Plan," stinks... seriously!

[_stemelbow]

So which is it? The MOST powerful, present, and knowing god or an OMNI (all) powerful, present, and knowing god?

Where did you pull that quote about me saying all the omni words? Seems like you have tracked down some pretty obscure quotes from me. Anywho, I think I've explained it decently in this thread. All the omni words with qualifications for nearly each of them.

love ya tons,
stem

[_Jason Bourne]

Oh, I don't know...

Things like children given a chance at a decent life, not being the victim of horrific cruelty, not experiencing unrelenting pain and suffering.

:-)

~td~

Along these lines I have a story. A friend has a son who is in his 20s and is now strayed a bit from the LDS path. The son is an RM. Dad was at a meeting recently where an apostle was doing a priesthood leadership session. Dad asked this apostle what he should do with a wayward adult son. Apostle said "Pray for God to send your son an affliction."

Now I understand this some because when I was TBM and my son wandered I prayed "God please humble my son and bring him back to the fold. Do whatever you need to humble him just don't kill him." Honestly I did pray that way. How awful!

Now I think gee so if we follow this pattern and we have a wayward child still under our care we should afflict them by maybe beating them or withholding food for a few days or something. Is this not really the idea the apostle is suggesting or I was thinking when I prayed for my son? One may argue that we cannot do it because we are not all knowing, or not God. But it is ok for God to afflict because he knows the heart and what is best. Well I would argue I think God needs to be just as decent in who he deals with his creation as he expects me to deal with mine. I did after all participate in creating my son.

[_Molok]

T

I had forgotten how foreign Mormon.org had become to the Church's own defenders.

SAUCE
pEp PeP

Fondle u tonz
Stak

Did you notice it didn't say being happy 24/7? I really don't know any LDS who think it means that.

love ya tons,
stem

How long,exactly, does a "deep, lasting" happiness last?

[_sock puppet]

Oh, I don't know...

Things like children given a chance at a decent life, not being the victim of horrific cruelty, not experiencing unrelenting pain and suffering.

:-)

~td~

Along these lines I have a story. A friend has a son who is in his 20s and is now strayed a bit from the LDS path. The son is an RM. Dad was at a meeting recently where an apostle was doing a priesthood leadership session. Dad asked this apostle what he should do with a wayward adult son. Apostle said "Pray for God to send your son an affliction."

Now I understand this some because when I was TBM and my son wandered I prayed "God please humble my son and bring him back to the fold. Do whatever you need to humble him just don't kill him." Honestly I did pray that way. How awful!

Now I think gee so if we follow this pattern and we have a wayward child still under our care we should afflict them by maybe beating them or withholding food for a few days or something. Is this not really the idea the apostle is suggesting or I was thinking when I prayed for my son? One may argue that we cannot do it because we are not all knowing, or not God. But it is ok for God to afflict because he knows the heart and what is best. Well I would argue I think God needs to be just as decent in who he deals with his creation as he expects me to deal with mine. I did after all participate in creating my son.

Maybe Mormons want to progress to be gods someday so that they no longer have to live the golden rule, they can just s*** on whomever they want (including their spirit children), for any or no reason. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. For now, though, they must treat others including their children with some modicum of respect.

[_selek]

Just wondering what y'all think...

~td~

Though I don't believe it's true, I like the Mormon idea of eternal progression. If there is a god and he loves us, then it makes sense that he would want us to progress and become more like him.

I agree that this supposed plan sucks: billions and billions doomed to eternal damnation. The overall success rate, measured as the percent of humans who have ever existed who make it to the Celestial Kingdom is very low. Seems to me that an all-powerful god would have better luck on the ultimate plan of the universe. Based on numbers, seems like satan may have won!

That said, the Mormon idea of "degrees of glory" is far superior to the idea of eternal burning hell. What kind of supposed loving father would send his children, or allow to be sent, to a place of eternal torture? It simply doesn't add up.

If eternal hell is true, a god that would allow such a condition is not deserving of worship. How many of you would put a blowtorch to your child's face because they disobeyed you? Even if your child rejects you and treats you like crap, who among us would even allow for this to occur if it was in our power to stop it? I try to reason with evangelicals on this point and they just don't get it...

[_ajax18]

Things like children given a chance at a decent life, not being the victim of horrific cruelty, not experiencing unrelenting pain and suffering.

Perhaps living in a random world where the meaning is difficult to see is part of the test. Maybe this is what God once experienced and in order to be more like Him we would have to be placed in a similar situation.

But I'll definitely agree that life on this planet stinks for most of the creatures that live here. It's not a very happy place. I'm not sure it ever was. We do the best we can but that fact still remains.

[_Fence Sitter]

I would like to see a Plan of Salvation that was based on my golf score. Not that I am any good at golf, but at least I would enjoy working on my salvation.

[_huckelberry]

I can sympathize with Truth Dancers opening post. I have always felt reservations about the LDS standard description of "the plan"

I have heard worse descriptions of Gods plan bouncing about the world. ( God made a nice garden but there was a trainwreck that was Adam and Eves fault so God decided to save a few people and punish a bunch of people, all for God knows what reason) Compared to that admitting that a person does not know the plan but hopes to live a valuable life would be much better I think.

I do not think as a sort of standard type Christian that I am wedded to believing any particular version of the plan. I suspect any version is both a simplification and perhaps a bit mythological. (I believe myths can tell the truth and straight history may fail to)

My mind inclines to a story that God created free spirits that are not in a physical world but who found their unencumbered freedom and power an opportunity to discard love for pride and selfish power over others. God descided to make a war on these demons by creating a new group of spirits who learn love through the weakness of physical existence. This new group, humans, learn community instead of individual power and become the vangard of a saved creation. (may or may not include some of those original angels)

[_truth dancer]

Hi Huck,

I have at times both agreed with and disagreed with Truth Dancer but have always found her thoughtful and given to respecting people. Why can't Pa Pa learn from adult conversation? Why this bit of Po tossing?

Thank you for this.

I very much respect you and always ponder your words and contemplate the thoughts you share with us. You have a lot of wisdom and as I read your posts, I find myself expanding my perspectives and broadening my views.

Thanks again,

~td~

[_truth dancer]

Hi Stem,

Oh..why didn't you say so. That is exactly what the Plan according to LDS is. Each person will be saved, and that salvation is dependent on the individual's choices in accepting and truly embracing love. Pain and suffering is relenting...cruelty is dispelled by eternal joy.

Each person will be, "saved?" Please explain. You are aware that most of the human population, (the 60+billion souls who have existed on this earth), have no clue what this even means right? The idea of NOT being "saved," is completely foreign and totally nonsensical.

Their salvation is dependent on if they accept Joseph smith? CRAZINESS! Again, what sort of divine plan is this? It sounds more like a cult leader who demands everyone believes in him or they won't get to heaven. Just sayin'.

Pain and suffering is relenting? You are kidding right? Maybe for you, OK, fine. For others, not so much.

Oh, you mean in the next life? You mean that it is fine and dandy for children to suffer because in the next life they won't? You are kidding right? This crazy mindset speaks to my initial post... where is the holiness in this?

Who exactly has eternal joy? The moms who send off 1/3 of their children into outer darkness? The children who have to exist for eternity without family because their loved ones never made it to the CKHL? Oh, wait, they will get a new family right?

Saying the words doesn't equate to anything actually making sense in terms of the LDS plan.

I do realize that there are those who are OK with the horrific abuse, suffering, and cruelty many children experience. They have found a way to make this horror A-OK. I just can't go there.

~td~