DiscussMormonism.com

Hi TD,

Huckleberry's words are my sentiments as well. There is always a simple peacefulness about your posts. To see the world with the hopefulness that you emulate would make it a better place. For papa and a few others to be unaware of what you countenance is certainly to their deficit.

Anyways, thanks for being here. Your post make sense. Sometimes in order to formulate a purposeful plan we need to first define what it is certainly not.

inc.

truth dancer wrote:Each person will be, "saved?" Please explain. You are aware that most of the human population, (the 60+billion souls who have existed on this earth), have no clue what this even means right? The idea of NOT being "saved," is completely foreign and totally nonsensical.

In LDS belief nearly each person will receive glory and reside eternally in blessedness in a saved condition. When saved is mentioned it often refer to saving from something. For LDS belief there are two things that people are saved from--physical death and spiritual. These are the basics. Very few will ultimtely decide to rebel against God. Those who rebel against God essentially choose not to be saved. He gives them that choice.

Their salvation is dependent on if they accept Joseph smith? CRAZINESS! Again, what sort of divine plan is this? It sounds more like a cult leader who demands everyone believes in him or they won't get to heaven. Just sayin'.

Though the technicals of agreeing with truths from all the leaders God has inspired is going to have a play in it afterall truths from God are important, the ultimate sense of being saved is to truly accept and internal love for others. On that point, while its true one must accept that the leaders called of God are truly leaders it does not mean that we must accept all they did in life as good. For LDS salvation is a joint thing. Without others and enjoying the love of others there's not a lot of point of existence. If people reject truths as taught by God's chosen leaders then they are in essence rejecting God and rejecting the acceptance of love that He wishes each would learn.

Pain and suffering is relenting? You are kidding right? Maybe for you, OK, fine. For others, not so much..

Oh, you mean in the next life? You mean that it is fine and dandy for children to suffer because in the next life they won't? You are kidding right? This crazy mindset speaks to my initial post... where is the holiness in this?

You haven't really defined holy. but i do appreciate your labeling me as crazy, or having a crazy mindset...it helps explain some. It is necessary for people to suffer in this life to learn how to live in the next..essentially. Joys are often experienced after people go through pain and suffering and are free from such again.

Who exactly has eternal joy? The moms who send off 1/3 of their children into outer darkness? The children who have to exist for eternity without family because their loved ones never made it to the CKHL? Oh, wait, they will get a new family right?

I don't really agree with the premise of your questions. Not sure how to answer them since they are making assumptions I do not hold.

Saying the words doesn't equate to anything actually making sense in terms of the LDS plan.

Good point. But it goes both ways. offering criticism of LDS teachings only works if the criticisms make sense.

I do realize that there are those who are OK with the horrific abuse, suffering, and cruelty many children experience. They have found a way to make this horror A-OK. I just can't go there.

~td~

No one said they are OK with horrific abuse, suffering and cruelty. It just so happens that it happens. It has to. People have the right to do evil if they so choose.

love ya tons,
stem

stemelbow wrote:

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Hello,

Why do Mormons think there's value in suffering?

Do we give our children dysentery so they can understand health? Do we not vaccinate them so they can understand Polio?

uh.. while as parents we may know some things we simply ain't prescient enough to know what types of suffering and pain is going to be a benefit for our children, necessarily.

The idea that Mormons think we take on a "mortal tabernacle" in order to "get" suffering is absurd. What do they do? Kick their childrens' asses every night so they appreciate not getting their asses kicked? Again, the idea that a god would mandate a "mortal tabernacle" in order to understand suffering is fantastically stupid... Especially so if the god is perfect and all powerful.. He could pass His knowledge on to His creations without absurdities.

Gegh. Mormonism. Silly.

V/R
Dr. Cam

There are definitely limits to how God is perfect and all powerful, i'd say. He is prefect in the sense of perfect as can be, and all powerful in the sense that none other can have more power, essentially. With that, i think what is "Mormonism" is the finest explanation of how things are if there be a God.

love ya tons,
stem

If there are limits to God's power (i.e. if the set of actions available to God is only a subset of all possible actions in the universe), the I would argue that God is not in fact a God (if he exists) -- just a smart fellow.

To be a God, I would argue that God must have ALL power. This is one of the reasons I believe that no such being exists in reality.

Jason Bourne wrote:Along these lines I have a story. A friend has a son who is in his 20s and is now strayed a bit from the LDS path. The son is an RM. Dad was at a meeting recently where an apostle was doing a priesthood leadership session. Dad asked this apostle what he should do with a wayward adult son. Apostle said "Pray for God to send your son an affliction."

Which apostle? Which friend of your's? That is a curious story, told second or third hand, huh?

Now I understand this some because when I was TBM and my son wandered I prayed "God please humble my son and bring him back to the fold. Do whatever you need to humble him just don't kill him." Honestly I did pray that way. How awful!

That is awful. My father never attempted that for his wayward children, and I won't for mine.

Now I think gee so if we follow this pattern and we have a wayward child still under our care we should afflict them by maybe beating them or withholding food for a few days or something. Is this not really the idea the apostle is suggesting or I was thinking when I prayed for my son? One may argue that we cannot do it because we are not all knowing, or not God. But it is ok for God to afflict because he knows the heart and what is best. Well I would argue I think God needs to be just as decent in who he deals with his creation as he expects me to deal with mine. I did after all participate in creating my son.

And you did wish your son was afflicted with some unknown something but not death.

love ya tons,
stem

keithb wrote:If there are limits to God's power (i.e. if the set of actions available to God is only a subset of all possible actions in the universe), the I would argue that God is not in fact a God (if he exists) -- just a smart fellow.

K. I disagree. God need not be limitless in terms of power, in order to be God. He afterall can't make a rock so big He can't lift it, as they say.

To be a God, I would argue that God must have ALL power. This is one of the reasons I believe that no such being exists in reality.

Okay. So God isn't God because you say so.

stemelbow wrote: Without others and enjoying the love of others there's not a lot of point of existence.

Where did you get this idea?

If people reject truths as taught by God's chosen leaders then they are in essence rejecting God and rejecting the acceptance of love that He wishes each would learn.

Just because a man claims to have been visited by God doesn't mean he was. Just because a man claims to be a prophet and talk to God doesn't mean he does.

No one rejects God just because they reject men who call themselves prophets.

It is necessary for people to suffer in this life to learn how to live in the next..essentially.

No, it's not. Check your references.

Joys are often experienced after people go through pain and suffering and are free from such again.

No one who goes through pain and suffering is ever free of it. Ever. The mind does not forget. It may bury it, but it doesn't forget it.

People have the right to do evil if they so choose.

What child afflicted with cancer or some other disease chooses that evil?

harmony wrote:Where did you get this idea?

In my head, as experience has demonstrated for me. I can't imagine existence without love.

Just because a man claims to have been visited by God doesn't mean he was. Just because a man claims to be a prophet and talk to God doesn't mean he does.

No one rejects God just because they reject men who call themselves prophets.

I never said otherwise on both points you make. I never claimed that a preson is truly God's prophet because he claims as much. Nor did I indicate that it is rejecting God to reject someone who calls themself a prophet.

No, it's not. Check your references.

Done. Thanks. Your assertion loses out.

No one who goes through pain and suffering is ever free of it. Ever. The mind does not forget. It may bury it, but it doesn't forget it.

How would you know? If you forgot it then you simply wouldn't know. But I didn't not claim people don't remember them. You simply wish to quibble, it seems, with my words free from them. You have misunderstood.

What child afflicted with cancer or some other disease chooses that evil?

uh...ultimate non sequitur.