God commanded Nephi...

[_Joseph]

Yep, better that Laban perish than a nation dwindle in unbelief. Lucky for the lamanites & nephites that they had the brass plates so they stayed solid in 'the gospel' and didn't fall into unbelief.

[_beefcalf]

I would be interested in your opinion of how the event described in 1 Nephi 4 and the story behind this video are in anyway comparable. Both have beheading. That seems to me where it ends. Can you provide any information showing these rebels thought they were commanded by the God of Abraham?

GR33N,

Good questions.

My assertion that these murderers were acting under the sanction of the God of Abraham comes from my understanding of the nature of the conflict in Chechnya, and other places in the Caucasus region. Although those involved might view the ongoing conflict as the struggle of oppressed people to escape imperial tyranny, it is my understanding that most of those involved, on all sides, view the struggle primarily in terms of Muslim vs non-Muslim. It is for that reason only that I make the supposition that these men believe they are battling on the side of God and that they are doing to their enemies what it is their God wants them to do.

Whether or not I have that correct, I would like to observe that the consideration of the beheadings themselves (without regard to motivation or reason) is sufficient in my mind to conclude that no loving or merciful or just god command Nephi to behead anyone, even to get the brass plates. Laban was passed-out drunk, according to the story. Why not do the 'A-Team' thing, tie him up, strip him of his armor and then proceed with the plan? Nephi would have Laban's (non-bloodstained) armor, so why kill him? And why, of all ways to kill someone, slice off his head?

To answer The Nehor, the horrific teaching I reject is the idea that God will, when it suits his purposes, command one of his children to hack off the head of another of his children.

Lets make one last observation: By the time the head has been separated from the body, by the time all the tendons, muscles and bone have been sawed through, the victim has been dead for a number of minutes. The only point of actually separating a head from a body is to terrorize a third party with the results.

When considering all this I am faced with two choices: 1) God is sometimes a bloodthirsty, capricious tyrant who solves problems by commanding his most favored and faithful servants to kill in gruesome ways those who obstruct him, or 2) Joseph Smith invented this fictional story.

I gotta tell you, number 2 is really, really making a lot of sense to me.

[_bcspace]

A challenge to those who view as historical the events as described in 1 Nephi Chapter 4. This is for those who honestly believe that God would command a beheading.

Please, as you watch this, keep in mind that these men believe they have been commanded by the God of Abraham to do these things.

Modern Day Nephi and Laban?

As you watched, did you feel the spirit, knowing that these men were acting in God's name? Now imagine Nephi doing the same thing. Can you bring yourself to still believe that God commanded it?

I didn't think so.

Yet another example of yellow journalism by making this comparison. The details are also not even similar. Your "facts" are also geared towards yellow journalism. For example, the scriptures referenced don't say anything about God commanding a beheading.

[_beefcalf]

Neither, I'd need more information. I would not want to do it so I would need some kind of explanation like the Spirit gave to Nephi for why it must happen. I would also ask why a bullet wouldn't serve equally well.

This is exactly God's failure that I've been talking about in the Critical (but Polite) LDS Discussion thread.

The Nehor has accepted the idea that God could conceivably command him to kill another man.

Since insanity, hallucinations, psychotic episodes of all kinds are known to affect humans from time to time, you now have the problem of having sick people thinking it is necessary to kill because "God's voice" in their head is telling them to kill.

If God had never introduced that protocol, of sometimes asking his children to kill for him, they would never have any reason to believe those voices; they could dismiss them as obvious hallucinations because they would know there is no precedence for God to ask his children to kill for him.

Since the God we all imagine is no dummy, there is no way he could not have seen where this would lead.

Therefore, there is no way God has ever, ever, ever actually commanded any man to kill on his behalf.

Therefore, all the stories which attest to the contrary can be summarily dismissed as fiction.

Problem solved.

[Guest]

Yet another example of yellow journalism by making this comparison. The details are also not even similar. Your "facts" are also geared towards yellow journalism. For example, the scriptures referenced don't say anything about God commanding a beheading.

Just went back and reread 1 Nephi 4. bcspace is exactly correct. God only commanded that Nephi kill Laban, but he does not specify the manner. Good catch.

I think it only partly blunts my criticism. However, I have been arguing on the basis of the incorrect premise that God ordered the beheading when the verses do not allow for that assumption.

GR33N and The Nehor and brade and Joseph and Sock Puppet: My thanks for contributing, but I screwed the pooch on this one.

And to Mr. bcspace, thanks for doing the due-diligence I should have done.

I'll still be arguing that a smart God never commands his children to kill, but at least in this case, we can't accuse him of preferring decapitation.

I've got a crow I gotta go eat.

[_Tchild]

Yet another example of yellow journalism by making this comparison. The details are also not even similar. Your "facts" are also geared towards yellow journalism. For example, the scriptures referenced don't say anything about God commanding a beheading.

Bcspace just plows through the critic's arguments like a hot knife through butter.

Love, set, match.

Wait, so it was Nephi who thought of the fiendishly bloody manner in which to kill his victim? God merely recommended the hit and left the method of assassination up to Nephi? I always thought that quietly strangling a passed out Laban would have been the way to go (no blood, no headless body for the guards to find. Laban would have appeared asleep affording Nephi more time to escape). Maybe Nephi had a torrent of rage that made a taking a sword and savagely sawing off laban's head a more satisfying and personal kill? Internet terrorists like that method, why not Nephi?

Good for Nephi. he obeyed God and got a little sadism out of his system.

[_The Nehor]

Let me modify the story to try to resolve some of your concerns. Instead of the content including the imperative that you ought to behead the mayor, the content includes the imperative that you ought to kill the mayor as soon as possible. In addition to the content that you ought to kill the mayor as soon as possible, the content also includes an explanation for why you ought to do it.

Okay.

The explanation goes something like this: If you don't kill the mayor as soon as possible, then he will swindle the Church in a way that will hurt the Church's reputation and give people reason not to accept the gospel, and, also, if you don't kill the mayor, then you are an unfaithful servant and not worthy of a place in God's kingdom.

That's not the way God has ever spoken to me before. I'd doubt that the communication was authentic. Not sounding like the Holy Ghost at all.

Remember, the phenomenology of the experience is identical in every way to the most powerful spiritual experience you have actually had in real life. The content, however, is different. Again, would you kill the mayor? Yes or no?

Nope, I'd need more clarification.

[_The Nehor]

This is exactly God's failure that I've been talking about in the Critical (but Polite) LDS Discussion thread.

The Nehor has accepted the idea that God could conceivably command him to kill another man.

Yes.

Since insanity, hallucinations, psychotic episodes of all kinds are known to affect humans from time to time, you now have the problem of having sick people thinking it is necessary to kill because "God's voice" in their head is telling them to kill.

Yes, that's the kind of thing insanity does.

If God had never introduced that protocol, of sometimes asking his children to kill for him, they would never have any reason to believe those voices; they could dismiss them as obvious hallucinations because they would know there is no precedence for God to ask his children to kill for him.

I reject the premise that insane people wouldn't kill anyone if there was no precedent. Too rational a reason. These people are crazy.

Since the God we all imagine is no dummy, there is no way he could not have seen where this would lead.

I don't think it led where you think it led.

Therefore, there is no way God has ever, ever, ever actually commanded any man to kill on his behalf.

Thank you for delivering the mind of the omniscient God to us. Obviously if you can't see a reason he would do something he must not have. You've reached this conclusion because....

Therefore, all the stories which attest to the contrary can be summarily dismissed as fiction.

Are you sure you're not suffering from from kind of egomania?

Problem solved.

If we accept that you know all. I do not.

[_bluedream]

Why is John Lennon dead?

[_The Nehor]

Why is John Lennon dead?

He was too beautiful to endure this world any longer.