The LDS Church is destructive dangerous.

[_stemelbow]

That is actually a quote in the "Miracle of Forgiveness".

What? And he didn't reference it? Oh boy. What kids are reading MoF anyway?

[_Buffalo]

My personal opinion is that the current church is only destructive and dangerous for certain people. Gay people for instance, who are left so hopeless by the teachings of the church they often contemplate - and commit - suicide.

[_Runtu]

What? And he didn't reference it? Oh boy. What kids are reading MoF anyway?

My younger brother was reading it at his bishop's request at the time of my brother's death. I sometimes wonder if it was any comfort at all to him. I suppose I'll never know.

I didn't read the book until after that, when I read my brother's copy. I thought it was really depressing.

[_stemelbow]

Maybe so.

Here's the quote, if you're interested:

“Also far-reaching is the effect of loss of chastity. Once given or taken or stolen it can never be regained. Even in forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. If she has not cooperated and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a more favorable position. There is no condemnation where there is no voluntary participation. It is better to die in defending one’s virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle.”
–Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness.

that's not teaching it'd be better to be dead then to lose your viriginity before marriage. he says you'd be better off dead then to lose it without a struggle. You guys sure know how to make the mountains out of molehills. I figgered that was the case.

That's odd, because my bishop made that very joke. He was joking, but he said he would never recommend that book to struggling ward members because he felt it was not helpful in the least.

I'm joking agian. Of course bishops can make such jokes and even have the opinion as this here bishop you describe. They are far more free and often far more thoughtful then many a critic likes to describe them.

Asked and answered, as Juliann says. :)

Goodie.

[_Runtu]

that's not teaching it'd be better to be dead then to lose your viriginity before marriage. he says you'd be better off dead then to lose it without a struggle. You guys sure know how to make the mountains out of molehills. I figgered that was the case.

Let me get this straight: Kimball tells us that rape victims who don't resist totally are better off dead than losing their "virtue." This is somehow better than saying it's better to be dead than losing your virginity before marriage? Honestly, I don't know what to make of you.

I'm joking agian. Of course bishops can make such jokes and even have the opinion as this here bishop you describe. They are far more free and often far more thoughtful then many a critic likes to describe them.

I have had some great bishops. I think even the most hardened apostate knows that bishops are usually decent people who even joke on occasion.

Goodie.

I'm waiting with bated breath for your response to my comments.

[_stemelbow]

*rolls eyes*

While it is my personal opinion (shared by people who've actually read the book and have a brain), I don't consider that exactly a piece of personal information.

It's really hard to take you seriously/resist calling you a dumbass. You're either a complete idiot or a troll (or both), which is, I imagine, why so many suspect you're actually Simon.

pep pep, think little of you tons...

Hey take me for however you like. I don't mind. While you don't consider your personal opinion a piece of personal information. i do. And that is how i intended it.

[_stemelbow]

Let me get this straight: Kimball tells us that rape victims who don't resist totally are better off dead than losing their "virtue." This is somehow better than saying it's better to be dead than losing your virginity before marriage? Honestly, I don't know what to make of you.

I'm glad you're asking to get it straight. Kimball doesn't say anything about resisting totally, he says without a struggle. of course we each struggle differently. My sis was the r word after she was drugged. In an unconscious state she couldn't struggle much huh? But even she admits she shouldn't have been in the position. Anyway, I'm not arguing whether Kimball's explanation is true or not, at this juncture. Just pointing out that what Beefcalf said was not what Kimball said, like you guys were trying to say--and liz suggested was a quote from kimball. It turns out what Kimball did say was much different then the claim.

I have had some great bishops. I think even the most hardened apostate knows that bishops are usually decent people who even joke on occasion.

Goodie.

[_stemelbow]

Do I think the church is destructive and dangerous? It can be for certain people. I recognize how some of the church's teachings combined with my family dynamics to develop some destructive beliefs about myself that came out in self-destructive behaviors.

That said, there is much in the church that is good and has helped me become a better person. I know a lot of people who have benefited in many ways from their church membership.

So, my answer is that it depends on the person and the circumstances. I can only answer for my own experience.

Fair enough.

[_stemelbow]

My personal opinion is that the current church is only destructive and dangerous for certain people. Gay people for instance, who are left so hopeless by the teachings of the church they often contemplate - and commit - suicide.

So, could it have been dangerous and destructive in the early days for some and not for others within the Church then?

[_Runtu]

I'm glad you're asking to get it straight. Kimball doesn't say anything about resisting totally, he says without a struggle. of course we each struggle differently. My sis was the r word after she was drugged. In an unconscious state she couldn't struggle much huh? But even she admits she shouldn't have been in the position. Anyway, I'm not arguing whether Kimball's explanation is true or not, at this juncture. Just pointing out that what Beefcalf said was not what Kimball said, like you guys were trying to say--and liz suggested was a quote from kimball. It turns out what Kimball did say was much different then the claim.

In my view, what he said was worse than what was claimed. Here are a few other quotes that are more in line with what Beefcalf and Liz and I are talking about:

"Your virtue is worth more than your life. Please young folk, preserve your virtue even if you lose your lives. Do not tamper with sin . . . do not permit yourselves to be led into temptation.”–President David O. McKay, quoted in THE MIRACLE OF FORGIVENESS by Spencer W. Kimball

"There is no true Latter-day Saint who would not rather bury a son or daughter than to have him or her lose his or her chastity — realizing that chastity is of more value than anything else in all the world.”–Heber J. Grant, quoted in The Miracle of Forgiveness, by Spencer W. Kimball

"Better dead clean, than alive unclean. Many is the faithful Latter-day Saint parent who has sent a son or daughter on a mission or otherwise out into the world with the direction, 'I would rather have you come back home in a pine box with your virtue than return alive without it'"
- Mormon Doctrine, Second Edition, Page 124

Note that the first two quotes are from MoF.