The LDS Church is destructive dangerous.

[_stemelbow]

Here's beefcalf's original statement: "You don't think it's dangerous to teach young people that it is better to be DEAD than to lose their virginity before marriage?"

Here's one of the quotes from MoF: "Your virtue is worth more than your life. Please young folk, preserve your virtue even if you lose your lives."

Gersh dangit I've been searching for a bit o context for this, but everything I find has this quote as quoted by Kimball. Virtue can mean many things, even more and including pre-marital sex. I'd like to get a fuller idea of what the context is here. As it is, I think this particular statement could be read as worlds apart from what beefcalf said.

And another from the same book: "There is no true Latter-day Saint who would not rather bury a son or daughter than to have him or her lose his or her chastity — realizing that chastity is of more value than anything else in all the world."

I don't think this particular quote is worth defending anyway. but it doesn't say what beefcalf said--it is talking about being the parent position of having to deal with a child who is unchaste. No doubt most parents, LDS or not would disagree with this. Well I can't say no doubt, but I'd wager as much.

In what way do these quotes not say what beefcalf said they do?

I don't seem them all the similar. I'd have to ask the opposite of you, in what way does what beefcalf said summarize these quotes?

[_stemelbow]

stemelbow = TAO ?

wikipedia says: "the word Dao is not generally considered to be a 'name' for a 'thing': it is a reference to the natural order of existence, often referred to as the "eternally nameless”"

Nope not meant to be a name of a thing.

[_Buffalo]

The "masturbation leads to homosexuality" thing was a tip off that SWK was a closeted gay man. When he jerked off, he thought about men (as I imagine gay men do) and blamed those thoughts on touching himself when all along, he simply wanted men in the first place.

Poor, crazy old bastard. I really feel sorry for gay men in the closet.

I think you're right. No heterosexual would possibly come to that conclusion. But a gay LDS man, who associates his attraction to men with his urge to flog the dolphin, might certainly think that.

Add that to his deeply in denial talk on gay people recently, and I think it's pretty likely that he's a closet case.

[_stemelbow]

There is always potential for disapointment when people believe things that are untrue. The disappointment comes when one realizes they are no longer true. The problem with Mormonism is that it teaches not just teachings, but an entirely new worldview of reality in and of itself. Something more akin to a fairytale. It gives the membership a sense of purpose and identity. They feel more special than those who didn't do well enough in the preexistence to merit birth during the restoration. They are told they are immortal, that they will live forever. They feel all they have to do in this short life is obey Church leaders and they will progress eternally as Gods. Upon realization that the Church isn't "true" after all, this view of reality implodes, leaving some "apostates" in a very miserable situation. Some people handle it better than others, but the potential is certainly there. For me, I joined when I was 19 so I wasn't conditioned into the Mormon view of reality as a child, but I can imagine how tough it would be for those who were, especially when they are punished by the tribe for simply using their brains.

With some religions, finding out they are untrue is like getting lifted 5-10 feet off the ground before getting dropped to the ground leaving you with a sore behind for a week. With Mormonism it is like being lifted 50 feet off the ground (because you feel that much higher than the other "Gentiles") before being dropped on your arse upon discovering truth. Recovery from such injuries take longer, assuming the fall didn't kill you. Many Mormons avoid this by living in denial, continually convincing themselves that the truth is really just a trick played on us by Satan. The rest of us actually decide to give up the ghost, so to speak, and start relying on our brains.

I don't know if this was in answer to the question or not. In what way did/has Mormonism damaged you? Destroyed? It doesn't seem like its destroyed you since your still around huh?

[_stemelbow]

Add that to his deeply in denial talk on gay people recently, and I think it's pretty likely that he's a closet case.

SWK recently spoke? I though people's existence just end when they die? Or do you mean packer?

[_stemelbow]

Unless you have a very relaxed personality, yes.

I have a family member who grew up on the Islands and to him, church is really more about BYU football and hanging out with friends and family.

So if you're like me who doesn't see the church as about football, although I do enjoy it, and hanging out with friends and family, which I also enjoy, it is destructive and dangerous? How so?

[_stemelbow]

One thing I learned after having kids is that the ole Mormon teaching about children being perfect is pure bunk. The spirit of Christ is in them? Children under eight are some of the most deceptive and conniving creatures ever put on this earth.

Perfect? you mean pure and innocent? Or what do you mean by perfect?

[_Jason Bourne]

But all the quotes you offer do not state it quite like you guys do. I don't know why and I don't care. but I can't defend their comments to those who aren't going to try to summarize them correctly to begin with. So I shall take your explanations and move on for now.

Wait! You cannot be serious. The claim is that the LDS leaders have taught that is is better to die pure with virginity intact than to lose your virginity outside of marriage. So let's read these quotes again:

"Your virtue is worth more than your life. Please young folk, preserve your virtue even if you lose your lives. Do not tamper with sin . . . do not permit yourselves to be led into temptation.”–President David O. McKay, quoted in THE MIRACLE OF FORGIVENESS by Spencer W. Kimball

What about " preserve your virtue even if you lose your lives" do you not understand?

"There is no true Latter-day Saint who would [b]not rather bury a son or daughter than to have him or her lose his or her chastity — realizing that chastity is of more value than anything else in all the world.”–Heber J. Grant, quoted in The Miracle of Forgiveness, by Spencer W. Kimball

What don't you understand about that? They point is a parent would rather should rather see a child die then lose their virginity. Now what does that do to an LDS kid who messes up. What if they think mom and dad would rather see them dead?

"Better dead clean, than alive unclean. Many is the faithful Latter-day Saint parent who has sent a son or daughter on a mission or otherwise out into the world with the direction, 'I would rather have you come back home in a pine box with your virtue than return alive without it'"
- Mormon Doctrine, Second Edition, Page 124

What don't you understand about better dead and clean? My MIL who is not a member had an LDS friend who once told her that she would rather see one of her kids dead than lose their virginity out of wedlock. My MIL thought the woman was nuts. And this from a MIL who used to tell her teen girls that if they came home pregnant she would disown them. The woman who said that later had a daughter get pregnant out of wedlock. The girl had the baby , kept the baby who is now 16. The girl later straightened her life up and went to the temple and is now and active LDS. The 16 year old daughter/granddaughter is a lovely young lady. I wonder if her Grandma would say what she said to my MIL now.

These are monstrous teachings and shame on the men who taught them in their power, authority and perceived place as God's mouth piece on earth. If God was really speaking to them they should have known better to speak such horrific ideas to the people they lead.

[_Jason Bourne]

One thing I learned after having kids is that the ole Mormon teaching about children being perfect is pure bunk. The spirit of Christ is in them? Children under eight are some of the most deceptive and conniving creatures ever put on this earth.

Yes sireeee! Having raised four of them I agree!

[_Buffalo]

Add that to his deeply in denial talk on gay people recently, and I think it's pretty likely that he's a closet case.

SWK recently spoke? I though people's existence just end when they die? Or do you mean packer?

Oops, the WK threw me off. I thought we were talking about Packer. Thanks for catching that.

Maybe they were gay lovers! :D

Just kidding Stem. Probably they were celibate.