The LDS Church is destructive dangerous.

[_Runtu]

Ok. I will give you that. In real life he is probably a good fellow and someone I could enjoy chatting with.

There's not really anyone here I really dislike, though obviously I find some people's approach to be, well, not conducive to respectful dialogue. I think I'd probably enjoy having bc over for dinner.

[_moksha]

You don't think it's dangerous to teach young people that it is better to be DEAD than to lose their virginity before marriage?

I think that comment only reached us because the book editors were too intimidated by either the hiring and firing practices of Deseret Book or too daunted by the height of President Kimball's pedestal to let him know how bad that "better to be dead" comment sounded. I suspect it was a combination of both.

[_stemelbow]

"Better dead clean, than alive unclean. Many is the faithful Latter-day Saint parent who has sent a son or daughter on a mission or otherwise out into the world with the direction, 'I would rather have you come back home in a pine box with your virtue than return alive without it'"
- Mormon Doctrine, Second Edition, Page 124

What don't you understand about better dead and clean? My MIL who is not a member had an LDS friend who once told her that she would rather see one of her kids dead than lose their virginity out of wedlock. My MIL thought the woman was nuts. And this from a MIL who used to tell her teen girls that if they came home pregnant she would disown them. The woman who said that later had a daughter get pregnant out of wedlock. The girl had the baby , kept the baby who is now 16. The girl later straightened her life up and went to the temple and is now and active LDS. The 16 year old daughter/granddaughter is a lovely young lady. I wonder if her Grandma would say what she said to my MIL now.

These are monstrous teachings and shame on the men who taught them in their power, authority and perceived place as God's mouth piece on earth. If God was really speaking to them they should have known better to speak such horrific ideas to the people they lead.

This last quote is much closer to support the contention that LDS believe its better than to be dead then have sex before/outside of marriage. But even this is talking more from a parents perspective, which I've already indicated I don't agree with. Thanks for the comment. I hear ya. Some LDS leaders, which are long dead now, have said something akin to that which I felt sounded silly at first, albeit in each case their quotes seem to indicate something different then initially claimed.

[_stemelbow]

Virtue is important by definition but...

1) Honesty is a virtue
2) Kindness is a virtue
3) Courage is a virtue

The mere state of not having had sex is not a virtue. Why should it be? It is especially weird to think of it as something that could be taken away against one's will. It is amazing how this strange chastity idea can be made to seem self evident by religious upbringing.
In fact, for adults, I am tempted to say that avoiding sex entirely for religious reasons is more like the opposite of a virtue. It would be like refusing to eat fruit or refusing to let sunlight touch you.

Thanks for the response, Tarski. I agree with you concerning the idea that virtue is not necessarily pertaining to sex and as I've explained elsewhere I don't know what exactly McKay meant here. The context would be a good thing to include.

[_Runtu]

Thanks for the response, Tarski. I agree with you concerning the idea that virtue is not necessarily pertaining to sex and as I've explained elsewhere I don't know what exactly McKay meant here. The context would be a good thing to include.

Given that McKay's quote appears in a chapter of MoF about sexual morality, it's at least clear what Kimball meant when he cited it.

[_stemelbow]

I'm at a loss as to why he's still insisting these statements don't mean what they say.

That's pretty unfair, Runtu. I've given my explanations and find them pretty reasonable but I don't know why. No one has explained why my explanations are unreasonable. none of them say what beefcalf said, and only one of them seems close to what he said, but with a different idea/perspective in mind. Kindly explain if you would.

Having grown up during the SWK era, I know what he taught repeatedly, and it was exactly what beefcalf stated. And then you have these clear statements (honestly, who doesn't know how "virtue" and "chastity" can be lost in an LDS context?).

No one's offered an explanation to suggest what Beefcalf said is an accurate summary of these quotes. None of them seem to be well represented by what beefcalf said. And rest assured, I've already agreed that at least one fo them was over-the-top and therefore wrong, in my estimation.

I have no idea where stem is coming from on this one. I guess I'm just bound and determined to see the worst in innocent and uplifting statements. ;-)

This certainly isn't the first time you've mis-read or mis-summarized things, but I don't assume you intend to misread. It very well could be unintentional. others have done the same as you, for whatever reason. Of course just because the majority here agree with each other doesn' tmean they are right. Indeed they haven't even explained why they are right.

[_stemelbow]

Although I will not go into many of the reasons that I hold this opinion (sorry, just not my personal thing/style to toss about Ceeboo venom), I will, briefly, suggest the LDS Temple wedding (and all that sorrounds it) is one mere example of not only destructive and dangerous, but it is indeed exceedingly divisive and utterly heart=breaking. (In my humble opinion)

Peace,
Ceeboo

Thanks for your opinion. So what do LDS temple wedding destroy? What danger do they hold? I've been temple weddinged and I didn't see any of it.

[_Buffalo]

Although I will not go into many of the reasons that I hold this opinion (sorry, just not my personal thing/style to toss about Ceeboo venom), I will, briefly, suggest the LDS Temple wedding (and all that sorrounds it) is one mere example of not only destructive and dangerous, but it is indeed exceedingly divisive and utterly heart=breaking. (In my humble opinion)

Peace,
Ceeboo

Thanks for your opinion. So what do LDS temple wedding destroy? What danger do they hold? I've been temple weddinged and I didn't see any of it.

He's probably referring to the practice of excluding non-member family and non-endowed family.

[_Runtu]

That's pretty unfair, Runtu. I've given my explanations and find them pretty reasonable but I don't know why. No one has explained why my explanations are unreasonable. none of them say what beefcalf said, and only one of them seems close to what he said, but with a different idea/perspective in mind. Kindly explain if you would.

That's just it. I'm not seeing any explanation from you other than to suggest that, without context, we can't know exactly what the statements mean. The quotes appear in a chapter about sexual sin, and President Kimball cites them because they are talking about sex. Anyone who has ever been a Mormon knows that when "virtue," "chastity," and "morality" are spoken of in a lesson or talk about sex, those words mean sex.

No one's offered an explanation to suggest what Beefcalf said is an accurate summary of these quotes. None of them seem to be well represented by what beefcalf said. And rest assured, I've already agreed that at least one fo them was over-the-top and therefore wrong, in my estimation.

I provided the quotes. They say what they say, and it seems like everyone here understands them in context.

This certainly isn't the first time you've mis-read or mis-summarized things, but I don't assume you intend to misread. It very well could be unintentional. others have done the same as you, for whatever reason. Of course just because the majority here agree with each other doesn' tmean they are right. Indeed they haven't even explained why they are right.

Again, I've explained, and Jason has explained. I'm not going to argue with you.

[_stemelbow]

Given that McKay's quote appears in a chapter of MoF about sexual morality, it's at least clear what Kimball meant when he cited it.

Of course. But even in that context it doesn't say what beefcalf said. I'm not defending these random few LDS quotes per se. I'm just here explaining that what beefcalf said, and which I felt was silly at first, is not what the quotes suggest. McKay's quote suggests that virtue is very important to preserve and people should fight to preserve it, even fight to death. But that does not say its better to die then to lose one's viriginity before marriage. I can see how it can be twisted to suggest as much. I can see how people who are critical of the church would like to summarize it as beefcalf did. Still, it doesn't matter. Its still not the same thing. Its still just a caricature drawn to satisfy the critical side.