The LDS Church is destructive dangerous.

[_Buffalo]

Given that McKay's quote appears in a chapter of MoF about sexual morality, it's at least clear what Kimball meant when he cited it.

Of course. But even in that context it doesn't say what beefcalf said. I'm not defending these random few LDS quotes per se. I'm just here explaining that what beefcalf said, and which I felt was silly at first, is not what the quotes suggest. McKay's quote suggests that virtue is very important to preserve and people should fight to preserve it, even fight to death. But that does not say its better to die then to lose one's viriginity before marriage. I can see how it can be twisted to suggest as much. I can see how people who are critical of the church would like to summarize it as beefcalf did. Still, it doesn't matter. Its still not the same thing. Its still just a caricature drawn to satisfy the critical side.

That's exactly what it says. I suspect you know that, but are being disingenuous.

[_Runtu]

Of course. But even in that context it doesn't say what beefcalf said. I'm not defending these random few LDS quotes per se. I'm just here explaining that what beefcalf said, and which I felt was silly at first, is not what the quotes suggest. McKay's quote suggests that virtue is very important to preserve and people should fight to preserve it, even fight to death. But that does not say its better to die then to lose one's viriginity before marriage. I can see how it can be twisted to suggest as much. I can see how people who are critical of the church would like to summarize it as beefcalf did. Still, it doesn't matter. Its still not the same thing. Its still just a caricature drawn to satisfy the critical side.

I'm glad we have people here to tell us that what we were taught our whole lives is just a "caricature drawn to satisfy the critical side." Yep, leaving the church causes spiritual amnesia. We don't remember what we were taught at all.

[_stemelbow]

That's just it. I'm not seeing any explanation from you other than to suggest that, without context, we can't know exactly what the statements mean. The quotes appear in a chapter about sexual sin, and President Kimball cites them because they are talking about sex. Anyone who has ever been a Mormon knows that when "virtue," "chastity," and "morality" are spoken of in a lesson or talk about sex, those words mean sex.

Indeed...we can't be sure of McKay's intentions per se, without context. That is true. But I have explained how even if virtue, in McKay's mind, means no sex before marriage, it does not say what you guys are saying it says. It emphasizes the need for people to preserve virtue--that people should preserve it even if that means fighting to preserve causes our death. That's the attitude we should take, according to McKay. But it certainly does not say its better to die then to have sex before marriage.

I provided the quotes. They say what they say, and it seems like everyone here understands them in context.

you mean everyone who sides with the critics side, without explaining any reason. Of course I've offered reason and I don't' side with the critics on all things, in fact I most often defend. You guys must be right because you guys are the majority? Whatever. i don't' buy it.

Again, I've explained, and Jason has explained. I'm not going to argue with you.

But you have. It'd be nice if you would do more than assert. But I don't mind. If you don't wish to argue about it, if you don't wish to provide an argument in your favor, cool. I'll simply leave it alone. I just have a feeling more replies will come complaining. In that case, then I might find reason to reply too.

[_stemelbow]

Stem: But that does not say its better to die then to lose one's viriginity before marriage.

That's exactly what it says. I suspect you know that, but are being disingenuous.

Oh its exactly what it says? come on. if you can offer something more than assertion on this, I"m game to listen. You may even convince me if you provide reason. I"m open to seeing error by LDS leaders. But since its not exactly what it says, in spite of your assertion, I'll have to disagree with you. He didn't use the same words, and the idea isn't the same either, as I've explained but no one will engage.

[_Buffalo]

Stem: But that does not say its better to die then to lose one's viriginity before marriage.

That's exactly what it says. I suspect you know that, but are being disingenuous.

Oh its exactly what it says? come on. if you can offer something more than assertion on this, I"m game to listen. You may even convince me if you provide reason. I"m open to seeing error by LDS leaders. But since its not exactly what it says, in spite of your assertion, I'll have to disagree with you. He didn't use the same words, and the idea isn't the same either, as I've explained but no one will engage.

We both know that's what it says. Do you think you'll convince me by telling me what we both know isn't so?

Who am I to believe? You or my lying eyes?

[_Runtu]

But you have. It'd be nice if you would do more than assert. But I don't mind. If you don't wish to argue about it, if you don't wish to provide an argument in your favor, cool. I'll simply leave it alone. I just have a feeling more replies will come complaining. In that case, then I might find reason to reply too.

I provided 4 separate quotes that supported beefcalf's statement. You, on the other hand, have simply said "well, they don't really mean what you say" and "we don't know the context." But, I'm the one offering nothing more than assertions.

Brilliant.

[_stemelbow]

I'm glad we have people here to tell us that what we were taught our whole lives is just a "caricature drawn to satisfy the critical side." Yep, leaving the church causes spiritual amnesia. We don't remember what we were taught at all.

This is rather dramatic, Runtu. You could very well have been taught that its better for you to be dead then to have sex before marriage. Any of your local leaders could have taught it. Any of the general authorities could ahve taught it. I'm not saying it didn't' happen. I also am open to see teachings by LDS leaders to be something I consider wrong. But these quotes do not say it. even though I disagree with most of them, they don't say what you guys say they say. I've explained why and have not received explanation otherwise other than to assert you and your buddies are right.

[_Runtu]

This is rather dramatic, Runtu. You could very well have been taught that its better for you to be dead then to have sex before marriage. Any of your local leaders could have taught it. Any of the general authorities could have taught it. I'm not saying it didn't' happen. I also am open to see teachings by LDS leaders to be something I consider wrong. But these quotes do not say it. even though I disagree with most of them, they don't say what you guys say they say. I've explained why and have not received explanation otherwise other than to assert you and your buddies are right.

I am dramatic. Ask Eric.

[_stemelbow]

I provided 4 separate quotes that supported beefcalf's statement. You, on the other hand, have simply said "well, they don't really mean what you say" and "we don't know the context." But, I'm the one offering nothing more than assertions.

Brilliant.

I've offered my explanations for each quote, explaining why each does not support beefcalf's statement. And no one has contested my explanations. Of course anyone can offer proof-texts to support their assertions, if they support them. But in this case, as I've explained, none of them support the assertion. Their purpose and point is quite different.

Other than the McConkie quote, none of them come all that close. And even the McConkie quote, which I think is just simply false, has as its point that from the parents perspective its better that a child die then lose his/her virginity, it seems. This also seems to be a repeat of SWK's quote on the same idea. While close--no cigar, as they say.

[_stemelbow]

We both know that's what it says. Do you think you'll convince me by telling me what we both know isn't so?

Who am I to believe? You or my lying eyes?

Im not asking you to believe me for nothing. I've offered my explanations. You've offered your bald assertions, without response to my explanations. Do I care if you accept my explanations? Do I care if you are reasonable or not? No. Conclude whatever you like. But that really is not germane to the whole argument.