Another Gee/Schryver Deception Exposed

[_Kevin Graham]

Those of you who remember me as a FAIR apologist roughly a decade ago, probably recall that I was just as aggressive then as I am now when it came to getting down to the heart of the matter. I called anti-Mormons liars left and right, as is common practice in LDS apologetics. These folks didn't have a problem with it then, because I was viewed as being on their side. But now that I'm calling BS for the other team (in their eyes) suddenly I'm an "uncivil" fella who doesn't deserve their attention. Riiiiiiiiight.

We know what this is. Pahoran never had any intention of addressing arguments anymore than he ever planned to address any arguments in his review of JP Holding's book. FARMS needed a quick hatchet job and they called their hatchet man. But he knows he cannot explain away the numerous lies by John Gee so he feels it is best to take the high road out, pretending I'm too far beneath him. Good luck selling that over here...

Funny thing is I'm betting he probably didn't know about half of the lies by Gee until I just listed them.

Again, Gee's list of "errors" are much more than careless mistakes. They require that he make crap up from whole cloth, which means he cannot be trusted because he is agenda driven, first and foremost. What could possibly be his excuse for changing the color of the KEP photos in his book, just so he could bolster his ludicrous two ink theory?



Can Pahoran explain this for us? We know that's not what these photos look like, but he thought he could get away with it so he published them like this. Each photo was tweaked with a different hue in order to highlight the contrast between the ink used to write both the English and Egyptian text.

[_Kevin Graham]

1842 March 8 - "Commenced translating from the Book of ABraham for the number 10 of the Times and Seasons." - Joseph Smith

1842 March 9 - "... in the afternoon continued the Translation of the Book of Abraham."- Joseph Smith

Now what kind of scholar reads this information and then publishes:

"We have no record of translation after 25 November 1835"

And then after the point is raised to him, he then publishes again, saying:

"While Joseph slightly revised the translation preparatory to its publication in 1842, there is no other evidence that he worked on the translation of the exisiting Book of Abraham after 1835."

This is nothing short of dishonesty with the text. Joseph Smith clearly stated that he translated the Book of Abraham in March of 1842, but that evidence conflicted with his apologetic so he engaged in revisionism. Even when this is waved in Gee's face, he cannot bring himself to be honest about it. Why not just provide the citations and let reasonable folks make up their own mind? Because he knew no one would buy into the BS he was pushing on us. We see this same trend in Nibley and more recently, Will Schryver, whose lies are almost as numerous and as bad as Gee's.

The point isn't just that Gee is a lousy scholar, the point is also about hypocrisy. Because Pahoran knows damn well that had an "anti-Mormon" done anything remotely similar to this, then there'd be a slew of "reviews" pumped out by FARMS written by hatchet-men like him, raking the author over the coals for it.

This is nothing short of dishonesty with the text. Joseph Smith clearly stated that he translated the Book of Abraham in March of 1842, but that evidence conflicted with his apologetic so he engaged in revisionism. Even when this is waved in Gee's face, he cannot bring himself to be honest about it. Why not just provide the citations and let reasonable folks make up their own mind? Because he knew no one would buy into the BS he was pushing on us. We see this same trend in Nibley and more recently, Will Schryver, whose lies are almost as numerous and as bad as Gee's.

[_Kevin Graham]

Check out how LDS apologists react when they think that they've caught Dan Vogel being dishonest with a source document:

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/184 ... revisited/

Will Schryver took the gloves off and everyone else went apeshit thinking they'd finally proved Vogel was a sinful, lying, deceiving, anti-Mormon... over one friggin mistake!

That thread spawned sister threads one of which had Dan Peterson "cautioning" people not to think Vogel's award by the Mormon History Association really meant anything about the quality of his scholarship, and to prove it he went on a rant about how people win awards that mean nothing all the time, and others who deserve them don't. And encouraging people to read FARMS reviews of Vogel to understand why doesn't think Vogel's work is particularly good.

Like the one by the Hedges! I remember when Metcalfe tore them to shreds over their idiotic "review" which relied on complaining about stupid stuff such as word counts! It seems the MAD moderators deleted that thread entirely, and for good reason.

[_schreech]

Learn to behave in a civilised manner, and I may consider addressing the few substantive points in your rage-filled rant.

Regards,
Pahoran

Lol...so KG wasn't even talking to you and, on this same page, you said (prior to his post):

"...in the weird little world of Kevin Graham evangelism."

"with all the predicability of a knee jerk -- or an anti-Mormon jerk -- his demonology reflex kicks in"

"So the next time you see Mr Graham ranting"

"Remember that all it takes for someone to come under this particular anathema is for them (1) to be a Mormon, or otherwise a legitimate ideological target, and (2) to have written something Mr Graham disagrees with."

"It probably also helps if they are more honest than Mr Graham; but that is not a very exclusive club either."

You seem like a sad, bitter, old man who can't stand the fact some of us had the gonads to actually leave/question the "religion" that you are trapped in...I don't know you at all but I feel sad for you and your need to mindlessly defend all things LDS/apologetic - it seems unhealthy.

[_Doctor Scratch]

That thread spawned sister threads one of which had Dan Peterson "cautioning" people not to think Vogel's award by the Mormon History Association really meant anything about the quality of his scholarship, and to prove it he went on a rant about how people win awards that mean nothing all the time, and others who deserve them don't.

Wow, what a human dung heap DCP is.

[_CaliforniaKid]

If it doesn't, then Chris Smith's upcoming publication surely will.

I guess you liked it, then? :)

[_Pahoran]

Lol...so KG wasn't even talking to you and, on this same page, you said (prior to his post):

"...in the weird little world of Kevin Graham evangelism."

"with all the predicability of a knee jerk -- or an anti-Mormon jerk -- his demonology reflex kicks in"

"So the next time you see Mr Graham ranting"

"Remember that all it takes for someone to come under this particular anathema is for them (1) to be a Mormon, or otherwise a legitimate ideological target, and (2) to have written something Mr Graham disagrees with."

"It probably also helps if they are more honest than Mr Graham; but that is not a very exclusive club either."

All of which is entirely symmetrical with his OP, and its pathetic attempt to portray Dr. Gee as a "proven liar." His response, by contrast, was an outburst of vituperation.

You seem like a sad, bitter, old man who can't stand the fact some of us had the gonads to actually leave/question the "religion" that you are trapped in...I don't know you at all but I feel sad for you and your need to mindlessly defend all things LDS/apologetic - it seems unhealthy.

Actually I'm not all that old. You, however, seem quite young; not only because of your avatar, which may or may not be a picture of you, but also because of the fact that you seem inordinately impressed by the fact that you have gonads. They must be quite a novelty for you. However, let me point out these two facts:

1. Gonads are a remarkably mediocre commodity. Everyone has them, and not enough people use them responsibly.
2. I realise, of course, that you were probably using "gonads" as a metaphor for courage. That being the case, if you feel it took you a remarkable amount of courage to cease to stand apart from the world and merely follow the crowd -- then for you, it probably did.

A word of advice, Schreech: next time, try patronising someone else.

Regards,
Pahoran

[_schreech]

All of which is entirely symmetrical with his OP, and its pathetic attempt to portray Dr. Gee as a "proven liar." His response, by contrast, was an outburst of vituperation.

Or, he showed that Gee lied...i know its hard for you yes men to see but maybe take the self administered blinders off and you might get the point of the "OP"

I repeat - You seem like a sad, bitter, old man who can't stand the fact some of us had the gonads/courage to actually leave/question the "religion" that you are trapped in...I don't know you at all but I feel sad for you and your need to mindlessly defend all things LDS/apologetic - it seems unhealthy.

"Actually I'm not all that old (um, ok). You, however, seem quite young; not only because of your avatar, which may or may not be a picture of you (LOL - you really are old aren't you?),"

"but also because of the fact that you seem inordinately impressed by the fact that you have gonads (hmmm...please show me where i was inordinately impressed by the fact that i have gonads...or are you just making that up like most of the tripe you have been posting here?)"

"Gonads are a remarkably mediocre commodity (apparently you arent doing it right...sad). Everyone has them, and not enough people use them responsibly. (this makes perfect sense coming from a frustrated/unfulfilled Mormon - just as i suspected)"

I realize, of course, that you were probably using "gonads" as a metaphor for courage. That being the case, if you feel it took you a remarkable amount of courage to cease to stand apart from the world and merely follow the crowd -- then for you, it probably did.

(which crowd did i follow exactly?... are you one of those small minded "you are either momo or anti" types who can't understand that many people believe many different ways? - i guess years of indoctrination and frustration has probably pushed you into this bleak, myopic outlook....i still feel sorry for you for so many reasons....Like i said, you come across as sad bitter old man who is trapped is a sucky "religion" - good luck with that! )

[_Kevin Graham]

All of which is entirely symmetrical with his OP, and its pathetic attempt to portray Dr. Gee as a "proven liar." His response, by contrast, was an outburst of vituperation.

Pathetic attempt? I'll let the rationale folks here decide if I succeeded in proving John Gee has lied. It obviously wasn't hard to do. Tell us Pahoran, at what point would you accept that any of these examples show deception? I mean seriously, we already know what little it takes to set you off down that road when "anti-Mormons" make mistakes. So how much does John Gee have to get wrong before you admit the obvious? It has been a decade since his little booklet on the papyri and all he has done since is fight tooth and nail for his missing scroll theory to try saving face in light of all the critical evidence to the contrary. His recent piece of "research" is so absurd that the guy presenting it abandoned it within a week. He insults the intelligence of everyone, including those who have little.



But there should be no doubt now what John will do after we object. He's going to pull out his "Egyptian test" again and tell everyone they have no business telling an Egyptologist which characters are legitimately Egyptian. Watch, it will happen.

[_sock puppet]

All of which is entirely symmetrical with his OP, and its pathetic attempt to portray Dr. Gee as a "proven liar."

No one need attempt that when Dr. Gee keeps proving it himself--well, at least this last time, Will mouthed Dr. Gee's words in reaffirming and re-proving that.