considering the positive claims to evidence - 3

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_Themis
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Re: considering the positive claims to evidence - 3

Post by _Themis »

stemelbow wrote:Well it'd be useful if he actually referenced his claims rather than just spouted them off and expected people to go search for his arguments on ZLMB which could very well span years and many threads. Sorry, that just simply doesn't work if you ask me.



I appreciate your expressing your cynical view of my participation here. I provided a response, point by point, to the link. I don't know how anyone can categorize it as a fact-based analysis with a straight face, but whatever. I've said my piece on it.


No offense but you seem to have moved to attacking this guy instead of discussing Nhm/Nahom.
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_Runtu
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Re: considering the positive claims to evidence - 3

Post by _Runtu »

I've always liked this summary from Don Bradley made in response to Guy Briggs (whatever happened to him?):

Hi all,

Perhaps all these points have been covered on Controverse-E and/or Critical Canon before, but I thought I'd share some recent thoughts of mine on the use of the NHM altar find as an evidence for the antiquity of the Book of Mormon.

I sent the below as a response to Guy Briggs on ARM. Guy, are you on here?

I'd be interested in hearing what both believers and nonbelievers think of the NHM evidence and how it should be assessed. What, in your opinion, would be necessary to 1) show that the NHM find offers substantive support to the historicity of the Book of Mormon (if you are not a believer) or 2) show that the NHM find offers little or no substantive support to the historicity of the Book of Mormon (if you are a believer)?


My ARM post:

The NHM/Nahom thing is very interesting. I would regard it as one of
the best evidences uncovered to date for the Book of Mormon, which,
in my opinion, isn't really saying much.

The subject deserves a great deal of thought and additional research.
My comments below don't cover all the ground I'd like, but they're the
best I have time for right now.

netzach@GeoCities.com (Guy R. Briggs) wrote: Here's what we have
learned:
>
> 1) Nahom is a transliteration of a Hebrew place name. Hebrew
> has no vowels, therefore the most likely spelling of the
> place is NHM (nun-chet-mem),

You are correct, of course, that vowels would not have been written in
the name "Nahom." So, if we found an inscription referring to Nahom,
we would expect to find something like "NHM." But while such a find
would be _consistent_ with the name "Nahom," it would not necessarily
be a match since _we don't know what vowels were supposed to be used_.
Without this information, "Nahom" is only one of a number of
possibilities for the name of the place referred to in the
inscriptions as NHM (e.g., Nahum, Niham, Nohm, Nuhm, Nuham . . . ).
So, we cannot even claim that we have found a place called "Nahom,"
only that we have found a place that _may_ have been called "Nahom"
(among other things).

In fact, the situation is worse than that. The only clue that we _do_
have regarding the correct vowel-substitution/pronunciation of NHM is
the extant pronunciation: "Nihm". Since the place is now known to its
people as "Nihm", we are safest in assuming that this was its name
anciently as well - and we are positively unsafe in assuming that it
was something else.

It is certainly quite possible that the group calling themselves and
their land "NHM" changed the pronunciation over the generations; but
it seems at least as probable that they kept the original
pronunciation. (Recall that "NHM" in the altar inscription is actually
the name of a group of people - a tribe [and hence _possibly_ of their
_place_ as well]. How likely were they to lose the pronunciation of
their own tribal name, even while they retained its spelling?) In any
case, their pronunciation of the name is our only available clue to
the correct ancient pronunciation: we cannot simply assume it is
wrong.


> a Hebrew word (Strong's 5162)
> which means "to be sorry, to console oneself, to repent,
> to regret, to comfort or to be comforted."
>
> This works well in the context of the story.

Either 1) "Nahom" was an existing place, and so-named, when Lehi et
al. arrived there, in which case the NHM altar could refer to this
place, OR 2) it was not already named "Nahom" and was called that
because of "the context of the story." But you can't have it both
ways. If you are trying to argue for the Nahom-NHM identification,
then the supposed relationship of the NHM word to Ishmael's death is
simply irrelevant.

It may be countered that the Hebrew word "to be sorry" _is_ a good fit
since there is an ancient cemetery near NHM. But we should keep in mind that NHM is attested on the altar as the name of a tribe. Why would a tribe take a name on itself based on the fact that it had a cemetery? Surely, very many, if not all, ancient Arabian tribes had burial places. How many named themselves "the sorry ones" because of this?


And by the way, if NHM is, as you say, spelled nun-chet-mem, as in the Hebrew
term for "to be sorry," then it should be pronounced something like
Nachom, not Nahom, since chet makes a "k" sound, as in "Bach.


> 2) There is an actual place, NHM, which lies southwest of the
> Red Sea and due west of our best candidate for Bountiful.

Actually, well before the NHM find, the Hiltons and others had
identified _several_ places with names like "Nahom" in the Arabian
peninsula. If there were only place with such a name, and it turned
out to be conceivably where Lehi's group stopped, this would be more
impressive. That one of several such places would turn out to be
somewhere in the range of where the Lehites _could_ have gone is not
quite stunning.

The Bountiful link is interesting, but highly speculative. If we
aren't sure that's Bountiful, then we can't be sure that NHM is in the
right place relative to Bountiful.

> In other words, it's a real place, it's right where the Book of Mormon says it should
> be, it has the right name

As I mentioned, it's several real places. And it _may_ have the right
name. As for it's being "right where the Book of Mormon says it should be," I
have to agree with Duwayne that the Book of Mormon doesn't _say_ "right where it
should be." If it did, LDS scholars would have been looking for it
_only_ in the vicinity of the NHM altar find, not in all the other
places considered by the Hiltons, et al. The fact that the Book of Mormon account
did not allow them to _predict_ where a NHM could be found shows that
NHM is only "right where" Nahom should be in retrospect. In other words, the Book of Mormon
text really wasn't specific enough to make a determination of where
Nahom should be found, except possibly that it should be within a
certain very broad range. Had the Book of Mormon data allowed someone to predict
before the fact where a NHM could be found, this would have been far
more impressive. A general after-the-fact correlation such as the NHM
find is less impressive because it is more likely to be due to chance.

Lehi's route simply is not clear from the Book of Mormon. Serious LDS
scholars have proposed varying routes for him, including some that
avoid the Arabian Peninsula altogether and cut through the Sinai. Just
how "exact" can a correlation of any place with the Book of Mormon be under such
circumstances?

Ask yourself this. If a place called NHM had been located fifty miles
to the north of where this NHM has been found, wouldn't you still be
saying that it was "exactly where the Book of Mormon says it should be"? How
about 50 miles to the south? To the east? A hundred miles? Two
hundred? If, in fact, a new candidate for the Book of Mormon Nahom were found
tomorrow that was definitely named "Nahom" (not just something
consistent with "Nahom") and existed in Lehi's time, but was, say, 100
to 300 miles distant from the current NHM find, would you reject it as
being _not_ "right where the Book of Mormon says" it ought to be? If so, what
sense does it make to speak of any location being "right where the Book of Mormon
says"?

>and it fits the context of the narrative.

In at least one major way it does not. The Lehi group had been
commanded by God not to light fires and hence not to cook their meat,
but to eat it raw - in violation of the Torah. Why? The only
suggestion anyone ever seems to have found plausible is that Lehi's
group was to avoid detection by others. If so, why travel down (or
next to) a major trade route and enter a trade crossroads settlement -
NHM? A trip to the populated NHM is actually a very poor fit with the
context of a surreptitious flight through the wilderness.

> > Oh, and by the way. Nahum is the name of a book in the Bible.
> >
> Yup, and it could have simply been borrowed, just like you suggest.
>
> However, Smith could barely write English

No published historian of Mormonism will agree with you.

You might want to examine some of Joseph's early writings before you
make this kind of judgment. Check out, for instance, _Personal
Writings of Joseph Smith_. Joseph's October 22, 1829 letter to Oliver
Cowdery, for instance, (written just a few months after the completion
of the Book of Mormon), contains spelling and punctuation errors, but is
certainly coherent:

"Respected Sir I would in form you that I arrived at home on sunday
morning the 4th after having a prosperous Journey, and found all well
<etc. etc.>"

> You would have us believe that he picked a name out of the
> Bible which, oh by the way, just happens to have been a real place,

??

Given that Arabia is a Semitic-language area bordering the lands of
the Bible, it would seem quite unsurprising to find that biblical
names were also used for people and places there. In fact, it would be
surprising if they _weren't_. _Many_ of the Hebrew names in the Bible
have probably also been used as place names in Arabia. I'd make a
handsome wager on it. Would you bet against it?

> has a meaning consistent with the narrative of the story, is unknown
> at the time of the Book of Mormon translation but is discovered 170+ years
> later, and dated to the proper Book of Mormon timeframe by an independent
> archeological discovery.

A better summary of the evidence provided by the NHM find would be
this:

The Book of Mormon refers to a place "which was called Nahom." And
there are several places in the Arabian peninsula with names like
"Nahom" which have been suspected by students of the Book of Mormon of being the
Book of Mormon Nahom. However, no information specific enough to narrow the field
of possible Nahoms, much less predict where the true Nahom would be
found, is contained in the Book of Mormon. _Prospectively_, the location of Nahom
was impossible to pin down from the information in the Book of Mormon; but now,
_retrospectively_, one of the possibilities is alleged to be an
uncannily perfect fit with the Book of Mormon data. This is because this
candidate, referred to in ancient inscriptions only as "NHM," has now
been shown to have been so-named before 600 BC.

"NHM" also happens to be a Hebrew word referring to being sorry, which
must have seemed very ironic to the Lehi group, if Ishmael _was_
buried there, but is simply irrelevant as an evidence for the Book of Mormon
since the people of NHM presumably did not name themselves and their
land that in anticipation of a foreign visitor dying in their vicinity
centuries later.

The place NHM appears to be in the broad range of places where Nahom
could have been. But it was populated and a crossroads of major trade
routes, and hence an unlikely stopping place for a band so determined
to avoid other people that they ate raw meat rather than risk
detection.

The inscribed name "NHM" is consistent with the name "Nahom" and could
be the Book of Mormon "Nahom," assuming (as no one does now know and
perhaps can know) that the "a" and "o" vowel sounds are the ones
anciently used in the name. But the most likely pronunciation based on
the extant evidence is "Nihm," suggesting that NHM is probably not the
"place which was called Nahom" in the Book of Mormon.

I'm not saying the NHM find is of no value in Book of Mormon studies. But before
this, or virtually any other, evidence that has been offered in favor
of the Book of Mormon can be taken seriously, LDS scholars need to raise their
methodological sights, carry out more systematic studies of the
evidence, and stop just preaching to the choir. A real evidence is one
that will sway a dispassionate observer, not just those who are
already believers.

Don Bradley


I hope stem won't dismiss Don's excellent response as mere opinion without references. Don covers the main arguments and why they may be problematic.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Themis
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Re: considering the positive claims to evidence - 3

Post by _Themis »

Runtu wrote:
Don

The NHM/Nahom thing is very interesting. I would regard it as one of
the best evidences uncovered to date for the Book of Mormon, which,
in my opinion, isn't really saying much.

The subject deserves a great deal of thought and additional research.



I have been saying essentially this right from the start
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_Runtu
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Re: considering the positive claims to evidence - 3

Post by _Runtu »

Themis wrote:I have been saying essentially this right from the start


As have I. It's interesting and a possible match, but needs some more work.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_stemelbow
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Re: considering the positive claims to evidence - 3

Post by _stemelbow »

Themis wrote:You shouldn't dismiss this until you can confirm whether he is accurate or not.


I didn't dismiss it. I asked for further clarity on the point here. He seems to say since in hebrew the H should come out as a hard "H", or as a ch sound, that must mean that the inscription NHM cannot be transliterated into nahom. that doesn't necessarily fly. If the name was adopted/adapted from a local name, then the whole "ch", or "kh" sound wouldn't even be a part of it all. Perhaps the local name didn't come out with a hard "H"? Remember he's trying to argue against a transliteration, not an actual hebrew word. but offer clarity if you wish to continue this point.

How would you or anyone know. This is really a silly reasoning without a shred of evidence. Just hopeful surmising.


that it is evidence doesn't mean we, as in me or anyone else, would know. Its just so cozy that this fits so nicely with the text.
Love ya tons,
Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
_stemelbow
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Re: considering the positive claims to evidence - 3

Post by _stemelbow »

Themis wrote:No offense but you seem to have moved to attacking this guy instead of discussing Nhm/Nahom.


Certainly not meant as an attack of htis guy but rather an attack on his piece.
Love ya tons,
Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
_Themis
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Re: considering the positive claims to evidence - 3

Post by _Themis »

stemelbow wrote:
that it is evidence doesn't mean we, as in me or anyone else, would know. Its just so cozy that this fits so nicely with the text.


What fits so nicely?
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_Darth J
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Re: considering the positive claims to evidence - 3

Post by _Darth J »

stemelbow wrote:Its just so cozy that this fits so nicely with the text.


Therefore, Cthulhu is real.
_keithb
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Re: considering the positive claims to evidence - 3

Post by _keithb »

Honestly, I see this NHM issue as kind of a nonstarter in terms of evidence for (or against) the Book of Mormon. Lets assume the best case scenario for the Book of Mormon:

1. NHM actually signifies "Nahom" and not "Nihm", contrary to evidence from the local tribe's pronunciation of the place name.

2. NHM is close to the route that the hypothetical Lehi should have taken across the Arabian Peninsula.

To me, this is equivalent to making up a story about a group of people who traveled down the Mississippi and "passed near" to a place called Springfield. The Mississippi, just like the Arabian Peninsula, is a vast place, and the chances of there being a place called Springfield (or Springfeld, Springfold, etc.) somewhere in the vicinity of the Mississippi, especially considering how common the place name is in the United States, is enormous. If you're going to present this as "evidence" for the Book of Mormon, you really need to address this proximity issue before the discussion goes any further. Why should we believe that NHM was anything other than a lucky coincidence, assuming that the Book of Mormon had a 19th century origin?
"Joseph Smith was called as a prophet, dumb-dumb-dumb-dumb-dumb" -South Park
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Re: considering the positive claims to evidence - 3

Post by _Buffalo »

Darth J wrote:
stemelbow wrote:Its just so cozy that this fits so nicely with the text.


Therefore, Cthulhu is real.


And Frodo too.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
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