Pahoran's Ignorance is Bliss

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_Kevin Graham
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Re: Pahoran's Ignorance is Bliss

Post by _Kevin Graham »

emilysmith wrote:Pahoran has an insufferable way of dealing with critics, and he adds nothing useful to any conversation. He has been getting himself banned from specific topics for directing insults at people. I think his only goal is to make the opposition angry enough to discredit themselves with emotional outbursts.

The moderation seems to have improved, since they are actually moderating the LDS side of the conversation. Some people over there, Pahoran included, are completely out of hand, and they have been given free reign to be as obtuse as they like. It is nice to see someone tugging a bit on the reins.


Very insightful synopsis. I believe you are right about his intent. The same seems to be true for many LDS apologists/scholars. They debate nothing. They seem to be interested in agitating critics so they'll reciprocate accordingly, and thus discredit themselves before the home-team crowd/judges.
_stemelbow
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Re: Pahoran's Ignorance is Bliss

Post by _stemelbow »

Kevin Graham wrote:Why is it more likely? No one has ever been able to refute my arguments when I post there and I usually end up getting messages from several people asking me for their help with certain issues. The mods read the private messages, we know this for a fact. They then delete me because of this, saying they will not have their forum used as a platform for anti-Mormon recruitment or what not.


I believe your attempts at muddying up the place for your enjoyment as pretty much warn out your welcome. If you disagree then be my guest and continue in your self-delusions. Sadly, its true though. You can't even post there under an alias without someone figuring you out and you getting banned again. They have rules. You don't' abide by them. You get banned. yOu come and complain here. You think you are always right, it seems. So what? That's just silliness on yoru part.

The name of the site is a misnomer. Mormon Dialogue? That silly forum has always been interested in one thing and one thing alone. Suppressing dissenting views and using mod authority too shape discussions in a manner that makes it look like the apologetic side has the upper hand.


even if true. so? They have their place to have their fun. You break their rules and then complain when they in force the rules. You act like a troubled neighborhood kid who wishes to play with everyone but when you do you break all the rules of decorum common to the group of kids so they refrain from playing with ya. Whenever you find a way back in you continue to upset them, so they continue to avoid you. Finally it gets tothe point of whenever you are around, even if you're being nice, polite and abiding by their rules, they still want you gone because you've upset them too many times in the past.

And I was banned in August 2006 when I dared challenge Daniel Peterson and Brian Hauglid on a very sensitive issue. When I was first reprimanded I had no less than four veteran posters complain that I was being singled out. Greg Taggert even said he thought my responses to these people were very gracious, and not trying to be disrespectful. But because I kept asking them questions they had no answer for, Juliann stepped in and invoked an "asked and answered" policy, meaning I wasn't allowed to ask a question if it had already been answered. But it wasn't answered. Hauglid asserted without evidence that the text critical evidence indicating the Book of Abraham manuscripts were dictated, also make sense within a copyist scenario. I asked him how, and he just kept repeating the same thing. "It is compatible with a copyist view." That assertion doesn't explain HOW though, and I was hardly the only person on the forum asking him to explain it.

I think it was a few days later Dan peterson got on my case and I was banned for good. Too many people were struggling over this issue and they needed to thin the herd of critical responders. So frankly, you don't know what the hell you're talking about.


Boohoo. It sounds to me you making this into a personal vendetta pretty much makes the case. I'm sure they have their views why you were banned the first time, and all the subsequent times after that. You have yours. You wish to think you were all right when they were all wrong. I doubt it. But hey, I could be wrong. Who cares what they do? Its a place you have burned all your bridges at. You're not allowed to post over there. That doesn't mean you don't have anything useful to add to the discussion of Mormon things. Surely you do. There's a place here for you to do it. Now, let's get over it and move on already. Stop living in the past, man.

Yes it is, as evidenced by their actions.


I believe you are doing nothing more than emoting at this point. Surely folks who post at FAIR and even FAIR itself have demonstrated over the years that they have quite an interest in factual information. If you disagree for whatever reason, I believe such speaks more to your ignorance and hostility than to anything else. Indeed, how can you disagree with that? They simply think you wreak havoc in terms of decorum over there. That's why they wish you gone. Not because you're some unimagined, gigantic hero that they wish did not exist exposing their deceptive plans--kind of crazy thinking if that's what you're going for.

It would never come from Pahoran. He is the one who likes to do a CFR thinking he is on the verge of catching me in a snare. But I didn't proviide examples in my initial statement because I knew someone like him would demand examples. The fact that they do this proves my point that no one on that forum has a decent grasp of the situation. Ignorance on the Book of Abraham is at an all time high over there, thanks to many contradicting FAIR presentations that seek to do nothing except complicate a rather simple matter.


If you are correct here, then it will all come out in time. Here you even incriminate David Bokovoy by saying "no one on that forum". He seemed to have agreed with at least some of what you said. My goodness, you get going in your emoting rants and you don't even realize you attack those who are attempting to have your back to, at least, some extent.

Truth, as always. And yes, I do get a kick out of poking fun of some of the most self-righteous idiots like Pahoran and JeffK. The fact that they refuse to come here and venture outside their safety zone, is very telling. They have no argument to make outside MAD because they know they will always be hammered with the facts. Facts that will not be edited or censored by the mods.

None of you fare well over here in debate, no matter what the topic is.


I think the hostility here pretty much explains why more LDS don't post here. This is more of an "anything goes" place which doesn't accomodate LDS posters very well. Fine. But that's more likely why they don't post here, moreso than because they are afraid of you. Indeed Pahoran came for a spell recently. he's trying, at least.
Love ya tons,
Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
_emilysmith
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Re: Pahoran's Ignorance is Bliss

Post by _emilysmith »

Pahoran isn't trying to do anything except exasperate people he doesn't agree with. He has a one-note tune, and that is "CFR." Rather than present his own evidence or arguments, he resorts to blatant insults and harassment.

He is even getting banned from topics over at his home board because they are so loathe to permanently ban TBMs. If any critic acted the way he did, they would have been perma-banned long ago.

I have always tried to be respectful on that board but I have been peppered with warnings so much that I barely post over there. If you don't see how one-sided their moderation has been, then you are being willfully ignorant.
_stemelbow
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Re: Pahoran's Ignorance is Bliss

Post by _stemelbow »

emilysmith wrote:Pahoran isn't trying to do anything except exasperate people he doesn't agree with. He has a one-note tune, and that is "CFR." Rather than present his own evidence or arguments, he resorts to blatant insults and harassment.

He is even getting banned from topics over at his home board because they are so loathe to permanently ban TBMs. If any critic acted the way he did, they would have been perma-banned long ago.

I have always tried to be respectful on that board but I have been peppered with warnings so much that I barely post over there. If you don't see how one-sided their moderation has been, then you are being willfully ignorant.


I didn't say anything about their moderation and whether its fair. You have misunderstood me. I just see the constant complaining about Pahoran, and others, to me pretty ironic. So I comment.
Love ya tons,
Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
_EAllusion
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Re: Pahoran's Ignorance is Bliss

Post by _EAllusion »

The closest equivalent to Pahoran here is Joseph, who as best I can tell isn't liked by anyone.
_stemelbow
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Re: Pahoran's Ignorance is Bliss

Post by _stemelbow »

EAllusion wrote:The closest equivalent to Pahoran here is Joseph, who as best I can tell isn't liked by anyone.


Joseph's extreme is far beyond Pahoran's. I think DJ or Kevin G, or STS represent a far better equivalent. Indeed, the greatest sins identified by anyone here regarding Pahoran is that he was wrong on something, that he thinks people who reject the gospel and continue to fight the Church lack rationality, it seems, and that he called Consig an anti-mormon. Pretty tame stuff compared to many things here. Indeed, pretty much the same things have been said by some of the others I've considered equivalents.

Pahoran did say something quite true when he was here--people here will strain at LDS gnats while letting the critics sins go without notice, or something along those lines. No way, Pahoran can't do anything truthful, says Kevin G. Oh boy.
Love ya tons,
Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
_EAllusion
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Re: Pahoran's Ignorance is Bliss

Post by _EAllusion »

stemelbow wrote:Joseph's extreme is far beyond Pahoran's.


No it's not. You're not paying enough attention to one or the other. Remember when Pahoran accused John of having nascent pedophile fantasies or implied that Roger Loomis would commit genocide against Mormons if he could? Probably not.
_stemelbow
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Re: Pahoran's Ignorance is Bliss

Post by _stemelbow »

EAllusion wrote:No it's not. You're not paying enough attention to one or the other. Remember when Pahoran accused John of having nascent pedophile fantasies or implied that Roger Loomis would commit genocide against Mormons if he could? Probably not.


Fair enough. I probably haven't paid enough attention to either. From what I have seen and read, which has been quite a bit but certainly not all, I'd say the comparison between pahoran and the ones I've mentioned fit.
Love ya tons,
Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Pahoran's Ignorance is Bliss

Post by _Kevin Graham »

I believe your attempts at muddying up the place for your enjoyment as pretty much warn out your welcome.


You believe this because you want to, not because you were around during the time I "wore out my welcome." So you're essentially speaking in ignorance. People who wear out their welcome usually don't get welcomed back by other LDS posters. The moderators who run MAD are some of the folks who have a vendetta against me. Juliann is still upset with me because I contacted one of her professors and posted some of his emails with his permission. They are also upset because I revealed the fact that they do in fact check into the "private messages" sent between members. They never denied it but instead made excuses as to why they have that right.

And of course, my numerous refutations of their upper tier scholars really upset them. I was always respectful in my exchanges with them, but because I come from the same apologetic background, I know their tricks and I didn't let them get away with brushing off my questions. That pissed off the moderator team. I still have my last debates on that forum that i plan to make available online soon enough, and I would challenge anyone to point out how I was disrespectful to any of their scholars. They interpret refutation to mean disrespect.

But perhaps the biggest reason they shun me is because I was a member of their team just a year prior. They couldn't handle one of their own turning coat and batting for the other team. That they would not tolerate, for the same reason the Church encourages members to shun apostates. The same reason BYU will fire its employees if they decide to Mormonism is no longer for them. Because in their eyes, once you've been a member, you can't just leave and be a good person without the Church. No. You have to become an anti-Mormon of the worst kind because that pretty much complete's the picture they draw for you.

I see now you finally admit you don't know Pahoran as well as you think. I don't have all his atrocious incidents memorized, but I used to run a discussion board on my website a few years ago and a member who went by the moniker "Thunderchops" PMed me and said Pahoran called his wife a whore, and that it would be best if he left the forum because any more interaction with Pahoran might prompt him to seek him out in real life. That is Pahoran's MO. To piss people off with insults. I piss of Mormons because I throw truth in their faces. This is proved true because none of you can really debate me on any issue. You have to resort to the kind of crapola you're posting now.

You have no intelligent points to make. You're just here to cheerlead for your side with every diversionary tactic you know.
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_EAllusion
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Re: Pahoran's Ignorance is Bliss

Post by _EAllusion »

In fairness, Kevin has increasingly mellowed out over the years, but he used to be pretty insulting. While I have no doubt the fact that he is an apostate from their group is the biggest factor in the hate pushed his way. And in Juliann's case, the fact that Kevin exposed Juliann's misrepresentations by going directly to her professor almost certainly is what drives the bulk of her hate. And she more or less runs the moderation culture at that board. That's what gets him insta-banned with extreme prejudice. It's also true that they don't like the fact that they read people's private messages to one another (!) advertised as they tend to disappear posts that point this out. I'm not sure how big of a deal concerning their attitude toward Kevin, though.

Beyond that is something Kevin didn't mention. Kevin used to frequently express views on Islam I'd describe as bigoted and DCP almost certainly would see that way. I know DCP didn't like that and there was some vague discomfort with him even when he was on "their side" because of that. I've seen it come up with some other posters, as anti-Islamic views heavily correlates with the kind of right-wing politics that are popular among Mormons, yet an Islamic studies scholar's face is on their apologetic Mt. Rushmore. Tensions arise.
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