Signs of your indoctrination

[_Simon Belmont]

Why would a coffee drinker be denied a Temple Recommend then?

Why do you think they would be denied?

[_Darth J]

Why would a coffee drinker be denied a Temple Recommend then?

Why do you think they would be denied?

Probably because of experience and because of official church materials, like the ones quoted in this thread, that say that.

When you say you only speak for yourself, how far does that go? Do you mean you only speak for the alternate dimension of reality in which you live, apart from everyone else?

[_Dr. Shades]

That is some bad-ass sh**, that coffee is.

Dear Tchild:

Please click here, then pay very close attention to the underlined text.

Thank you.

[_Simon Belmont]

Probably because of experience and because of official church materials, like the ones quoted in this thread, that say that.

When you say you only speak for yourself, how far does that go? Do you mean you only speak for the alternate dimension of reality in which you live, apart from everyone else?

That's interesting because I've had coffee before, and I told my bishop that in my first TR interview, and he thought nothing of it.

In fact, I've told every bishop that I've had coffee before. Never been denied.

[_just me]

Probably because of experience and because of official church materials, like the ones quoted in this thread, that say that.

When you say you only speak for yourself, how far does that go? Do you mean you only speak for the alternate dimension of reality in which you live, apart from everyone else?

That's interesting because I've had coffee before, and I told my bishop that in my first TR interview, and he thought nothing of it.

In fact, I've told every bishop that I've had coffee before. Never been denied.

Um, did you tell them that you are a current coffee drinker? That would probably make a difference. And if you are NOT a current coffee drinker why do you keep telling all your bishops that you drank coffee once upon a time? If there is nothing wrong with drinking coffee why is this something that you feel compelled to talk about over and over and over again?

It's so strange. The missionaries that taught my dad the gospel told him he had to quit drinking coffee in order to be baptised (among other things, of course).

[_Darth J]

Probably because of experience and because of official church materials, like the ones quoted in this thread, that say that.

When you say you only speak for yourself, how far does that go? Do you mean you only speak for the alternate dimension of reality in which you live, apart from everyone else?

That's interesting because I've had coffee before, and I told my bishop that in my first TR interview, and he thought nothing of it.

In fact, I've told every bishop that I've had coffee before. Never been denied.

Like the Little Mermaid asked, did you tell him that you are a current, ongoing coffee drinker?

Or maybe your bishop was just off reservation, since Gordon B. Hinckley and other church leaders have said that coffee will keep someone from getting a temple recommend.

But now I have to wonder why drinking coffee would have come up at all, since you informed everyone that asking about coffee is not part of the temple recommend interview, anyway.

From page 1 of this thread:

Darth J. et al:

The question was whether the temple recommend questions ask about coffee.

They do not.

Zeezrom thinks they do.

So, CFR, Zeezrom.

[_Simon Belmont]

Like the Little Mermaid asked, did you tell him that you are a current, ongoing coffee drinker?

No, why would it matter? Coffee is coffee.

But now I have to wonder why drinking coffee would have come up at all, since you informed everyone that asking about coffee is not part of the temple recommend interview, anyway.

I volunteered the information. Coffee is traditionally considered against the WoW, but is that official doctrine? I didn't get asked about it in the TR interview.

[_Darth J]

Like the Little Mermaid asked, did you tell him that you are a current, ongoing coffee drinker?

No, why would it matter? Coffee is coffee.

How amusing that it is Mr. Apostates-Never-Understood-The-Gospel who is making this statement.

If you confess and forsake your sins, it means you have repented, so it is not a problem anymore. Thus, if you confess that you violated the Word of Wisdom, but you do not do it any more, you have repented and it is not an ongoing sin that would keep someone out of the temple. Not the present tense regarding the Word of Wisdom below:

Boyd K. Packer

The interview for a temple recommend is conducted privately between the bishop and the Church member concerned. Here the member is asked searching questions about personal conduct and worthiness and loyalty to the Church and its officers. The person must certify that he or she is morally clean and is keeping the Word of Wisdom, paying a full tithe, living in harmony with the teachings of the Church, and not maintaining any affiliation or sympathy with apostate groups. The bishop is instructed that confidentiality in handling these matters with each interviewee is of the utmost importance.

Acceptable answers to the bishop's questions will ordinarily establish the worthiness of an individual to receive a temple recommend. If an applicant is not keeping the commandments or there is something unsettled that needs putting in order, it will be necessary to demonstrate true repentance before a temple recommend is issued.

On repentance:

"Chapter 19: Repentance," Gospel Principles, (2009)

To make our repentance complete we must keep the commandments of the Lord (see D&C 1:32). We are not fully repentant if we do not pay tithes or keep the Sabbath day holy or obey the Word of Wisdom. We are not repentant if we do not sustain the authorities of the Church and do not love the Lord and our fellowmen. If we do not pray and are unkind to others, we are surely not repentant. When we repent, our life changes.

President Kimball said: “First, one repents. Having gained that ground he then must live the commandments of the Lord to retain his vantage point. This is necessary to secure complete forgiveness” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Spencer W. Kimball, 43).

Jay E. Jensen, "Do You Know How to Repent?", New Era, Nov. 1999

“A little over a year ago, I had the privilege of interviewing a young man to go on a mission. Because he had committed a major transgression, it was necessary for him under then-existing policy to be interviewed by a General Authority. When the young man came in, I said, ‘Apparently there’s been a major transgression in your life, and that has necessitated this interview. Would you mind telling me what the problem was? What did you do?’

“He laughed and said, ‘Well, there isn’t anything I haven’t done.’ I said, ‘Well, let’s be more specific then. Have you … ?’ And then this General Authority began to probe with some very specific questions. The young man laughed again and said, ‘I told you, I’ve done everything.’

“I said, ‘How many times have you …’ He said very sarcastically, ‘Do you think I numbered them?’ I said, ‘I would to God you could if you can’t.’ He said, again quite sarcastically, ‘Well, I can’t.’

“I said, ‘How about …’ And then the General Authority probed in another direction. He said, ‘I told you. I’ve done everything.’ I said, ‘Drugs?’ He said, ‘Yes,’ in a very haughty attitude. I said, ‘What makes you think you’re going on a mission then?’ He said, ‘I know I’m going. My patriarchal blessing says I’ll go on a mission, and I’ve repented. I haven’t done any of those things for this past year. I have repented, and I know I’m going on a mission.’

“I said, ‘My dear friend, I’m sorry but you are not going on a mission. Do you think we could send you out with those clean, wholesome young men who have never violated the code? Do you think we could have you go out and boast and brag about your past? You haven’t repented; you have just stopped doing something.

“‘Sometime in your life you need to visit Gethsemane; and when you have been there, you’ll understand what repentance is. Only after you have suffered in some small degree as the Savior suffered in Gethsemane will you know what repentance is. The Savior has suffered in a way none of us understands for every transgression committed. How dare you laugh and jest and have a haughty attitude about your repentance? I’m sorry, you are not going on a mission.’

“He started to cry, and he cried for several minutes. I didn’t say a word. Finally, he said, ‘I guess that’s the first time I have cried since I was five years old.’ I said, ‘If you had cried like that the first time you were tempted to violate the moral code, you possibly would be going on a mission.’

“He left the office, and I think he felt I was really cruel. I explained to the bishop and the stake president that the boy could not go on a mission.”

About six months later the same General Authority returned to that city to speak in a lecture series held in the evening. When he finished, many young adults lined up to shake hands with him. As he shook hands, one by one, he looked up and saw the young man that he had previously interviewed standing in the line about four back. The General Authority relates the following:

“My mind quickly flashed back to our interview. I recalled his laughing and haughty attitude. I remembered how sarcastic he was. Pretty soon he was right in front of me. I was on the stand bending over, and as I reached down to shake his hand, I noticed a great change had taken place. He had tears in his eyes. He had almost a holy glow about his countenance. He took my hand in his and said, ‘I’ve been there; I’ve been to Gethsemane and back.’ I said, ‘I know. It shows in your face.’ We can be forgiven for our transgressions, but we must understand that just to stop doing something is not repentance. If it had not been for the Savior and the miracle of forgiveness, this young man would have carried his transgressions throughout all eternity. We ought to love the Savior and serve Him for this reason and this reason alone” (Elder Vaughn J. Featherstone, Sweden Area Conference, Youth Session, Aug. 1974).

But now I have to wonder why drinking coffee would have come up at all, since you informed everyone that asking about coffee is not part of the temple recommend interview, anyway.

I volunteered the information. Coffee is traditionally considered against the WoW, but is that official doctrine? I didn't get asked about it in the TR interview.

Why would you volunteer information that is irrelevant to the interview and was not subsumed by any of the questions?

And as far as questioning whether it is the official doctrine of the LDS Church that coffee is forbidden by the Word of Wisdom, you are reaching for pathetic new lows in intellectual dishonesty.

Handbook of Instructions, Handbook 2: Administering the Church

21.3.11 Word of Wisdom

The only official interpretation of “hot drinks” (D&C 89:9) in the Word of Wisdom is the statement made by early Church leaders that the term “hot drinks” means tea and coffee.

Members should not use any substance that contains illegal drugs. Nor should members use harmful or habit-forming substances except under the care of a competent physician.

"Lesson 38: Nutrition and the Word of Wisdom," Maintaining Physical Health

When discussing “hot drinks,” read the following words of the Prophet Joseph Smith given in July 1833, five months after the revelation was received. This will help class members realize that tea and coffee are the hot drinks referred to in the Word of Wisdom.

“‘I understand that some of the people are excusing themselves in using tea and coffee, because the Lord only said “hot drinks” in the revelation of the Word of Wisdom. …

“‘[Tea and coffee] are what the Lord meant when He said “hot drinks”’” (Joseph Smith, as quoted by Joel H. Johnson, A Voice from the Mountains [Salt Lake City: Juvenile Instructor Office, 1881], p. 12).

"Lesson 27: The Lord’s Law of Health," Aaronic Priesthood Manual 2, (1993)

Explain that to find out how much the young men really know about the Word of Wisdom, you are going to give them a short quiz. Hand out paper and pencils, and give the following quiz.

1. 1.

Where in the scriptures is the Word of Wisdom found? (Section 89 of the Doctrine and Covenants.)
2. 2.

Is drinking coffee violating the Word of Wisdom? (Yes.)
.......

What is the most famous part of the Word of Wisdom? (The commandment not to use alcohol, tobacco, and hot drinks [meaning tea and coffee].)

"Lesson 22: The Word of Wisdom: “A Principle with Promise”," Doctrine and Covenants and Church History Gospel Doctrine Teacher’s Manual, (1999)

Write Not for the Body and the following scripture references on the chalkboard. Read each scripture reference with class members. Then list the substance it describes.

1. a.

D&C 89:5–7. (Wine or strong drink.)
2. b.

D&C 89:8. (Tobacco.)
3. c.

D&C 89:9. (Hot drinks, defined as tea and coffee.)

What a sad time for internet Mormonism, when defense of the faith requires suggesting obviously untenable positions, like bcspace suggesting that the Millennial Star was not an official church publication, or Simon Belmont questioning whether it is official doctrine that coffee is forbidden by the Word of Wisdom.

[_Simon Belmont]

If you confess and forsake your sins, it means you have repented, so it is not a problem anymore.

I only volunteered it out of curiosity. Who says I forsook it?

[_Darth J]

If you confess and forsake your sins, it means you have repented, so it is not a problem anymore.

I only volunteered it out of curiosity. Who says I forsook it?

I see. So it may be the case that your bishop was an accomplice to you entering the house of the Lord unworthily, because you do not keep (or were not keeping) the Word of Wisdom.

But why would you be curious about something irrelevant to the temple recommend interview questions? Did you volunteer what your favorite make of automobile is, or your favorite sports team, or your high scores on Castlevania, or things like that? What would make you curious about something that, as you maintain, has absolutely nothing to do with getting a temple recommend?