Robert Taylor Burton: Saint or Murderer?

[_Buffalo]

You really think Harmony's reaction to Will is worse than the content from Will that sparked it?

I didn't suggest that. I do think Harmony's complaint of Will only adds to the atmosphere here, which atmosphere I have described over and over as being quite problematic to civil, thoughtful discourse.

I don't' care if Harmony bleieves Will and thinks him a terrible person. I'd rather we discuss the issue, and leave the personal quibbles aside. As long as these threads are nothing but personal fights (which includes people's personal biases towards LDS folks/defenders), we'll won't get too far.

We're real human beings. Real human beings argue. I don't see any way of getting around that, here or anywhere else.

[_Buffalo]

Okay, but, the trial didn't find him responsible for it. I realize that doesn't mean he was innocent, but there still is possibility that he also wasn't responsible for the death, maimin, and life-wrecking that took place.

As I read the thread, Stem, nobody is claiming it isn't possible Burton wasn't responsible.

Everybody seems to have an open mind on the issue. Everybody except one.

That one is, of course, Will.

Will acts as if he knows through some hitherto undisclosed research into some hitherto undisclosed historical records that Burton was absolutely not responsible for it.

Will cites to the fact Burton was acquitted at trial as proof.

While a jury verdict is certainly evidence to be considered in evaluating the proposition of Burton's guilt, it should not be forgotten that Joseph and Hyrum Smith's murderers were similarly acquitted.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri (Italian for "The jury thought not.")

That's going to leave a mark!

[_Buffalo]

The atmosphere of this place sucks. It stifles thoughtful dialog.

I take it this is your very first time visiting the internet.

[_stemelbow]

As I read the thread, Stem, nobody is claiming it isn't possible Burton wasn't responsible.

Here is a sampling of conlusions of murder:

t I also consider Robert Taylor Burton to have murderous blood on his hands due to his involvement in the Morrisite War

—Rollo, pg8

Hate to burst your bubble, Will, but murderers won't be at the first resurrection.

—Rollo, pg9

There is no way I am going to worship a god that believes murderers are awesome and righteous and people who don't believe in killing are evil apostates who will burn in hell for a thousand years. Nice.

—just me, pg9

It's pretty sad that you feel your affiliation with the church compels you to take the side of a murderer.

—Buffalo, pg9
There are more of course.

Everybody seems to have an open mind on the issue. Everybody except one.

That's about as blind as someone's going to get, Consig. I appreciate you offering your opinion, but open-minded seems about the last thing people have in this thread.

That one is, of course, Will.

Will acts as if he knows through some hitherto undisclosed research into some hitherto undisclosed historical records that Burton was absolutely not responsible for it.

Will cites to the fact Burton was acquitted at trial as proof.

While a jury verdict is certainly evidence to be considered in evaluating the proposition of Burton's guilt, it should not be forgotten that Joseph and Hyrum Smith's murderers were similarly acquitted.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri (Italian for "The jury thought not.")

I agree, Will being adamant that Burton was innocent of any wrong doing is problematic. But he does have the trial to support his claim. Its not like his claim is bald assertion.

[_stemelbow]

Don't expect anyone to know what you mean, prior to your clarification.

This is the only place where it's possible to find more than one side of Mormon discussions. This place stifles nothing, includiing your own voice. Own it; it's yours too.

And whatever atmosphere you find here is a result of your interpretation of the posters who are members of this community... including Will, Wade, and yourself. Don't be blaming the "place" for something that is your interpretation.

Nice try, Harmony. I"m simply not going to agree with your assertions regarding this place. This thread supports nicely my contention the stifling atmosphere here.

[_Yoda]

Don't expect anyone to know what you mean, prior to your clarification.

This is the only place where it's possible to find more than one side of Mormon discussions. This place stifles nothing, includiing your own voice. Own it; it's yours too.

And whatever atmosphere you find here is a result of your interpretation of the posters who are members of this community... including Will, Wade, and yourself. Don't be blaming the "place" for something that is your interpretation.

Nice try, Harmony. I"m simply not going to agree with your assertions regarding this place. This thread supports nicely my contention the stifling atmosphere here.

Do you participate in other debate boards that are less stifling?

I think that one thing you need to consider, Stem, is that religion is a viable "hot button" for people.

Like it or not, discussions involving people's faith become very personal.

Believe me, I don't like the personal attacks that happen here anymore than you do. But I think that if you objectively look at the posts on MAD, you will find that the personal attacks are slung there as well...just with different players.

That's not a justification. That's just the way it is.

Although I have not posted on CARM, I have heard the same thing about that message board as well.

If you plan on debating religion, it is the nature of the beast, I'm afraid.

[_stemelbow]

Do you participate in other debate boards that are less stifling?

I think that one thing you need to consider, Stem, is that religion is a viable "hot button" for people.

Like it or not, discussions involving people's faith become very personal.

Believe me, I don't like the personal attacks that happen here anymore than you do. But I think that if you objectively look at the posts on MAD, you will find that the personal attacks are slung there as well...just with different players.

That's not a justification. That's just the way it is.

Although I have not posted on CARM, I have heard the same thing about that message board as well.

If you plan on debating religion, it is the nature of the beast, I'm afraid.

my point is, I think we can do better than that.

i've posted at CARM and MD&D for years. I know how they work. The atmosphere is pretty similar in both cases. It seems like I"m just now realizing its not the rules, as I thought with CARM (you think moderating at MD&D is biased, try posting at CARM as an LDS defender sometime), that cuased the bulk of the problems, but the attitudes of the posters.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

I don't know about anyone else but this thread is exhausting.

Agreed.

Am I the only one who is positive we don't know either way? Am I the only one who will see this with some reasonable balance? We don't know. We simply don't.

I'm one of those who rarely (if ever) admits "knowing" anything. I have a ton of opinions and beliefs; in this case, it's my opinion only that Burton wrongfully caused the deaths of several (if not all) the Morrisites who died over the course of three days in June 1862. Is it "murder"? In my mind, yes, even if man's law found otherwise. Again, just my opinion.

This thread is a perfect example of why the atmosphere at this place is stifling thoughtful discourse.

In my experience, this forum is the best in terms of freedom of open discourse (others, like MADB/FAIR, typically shut down/ban authors they don't like, even if those authors are attempting a civil and scholarly discussion); I've tried very hard to keep this discussion to the facts which can be uncovered, trying to back up/quote my position. Unfortunately, those who disagree with my information adopt the "attack the messenger" response. And that is too bad.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

I also consider Robert Taylor Burton to have murderous blood on his hands due to his involvement in the Morrisite War

—Rollo, pg8

Hate to burst your bubble, Will, but murderers won't be at the first resurrection.

—Rollo, pg9

Again, let me reiterate that my "conclusion of murder" is my opinion alone.

[_stemelbow]

I'm one of those who rarely (if ever) admits "knowing" anything. I have a ton of opinions and beliefs; in this case, it's my opinion only that Burton wrongfully caused the deaths of several (if not all) the Morrisites who died over the course of three days in June 1862. Is it "murder"? In my mind, yes, even if man's law found otherwise. Again, just my opinion.

If the events took place as maintain by Burton would you also say it was murder? If Morris called upon his followers to get weapons and fight, they attempted to do so, and then Morris charged Burton is it murder?

Don't get me wrong, i don't wish to favor Burton's recounting at all.

In my experience, this forum is the best in terms of freedom of open discourse (others, like MADB/FAIR, typically shut down/ban authors they don't like, even if those authors are attempting a civil and scholarly discussion); I've tried very hard to keep this discussion to the facts which can be uncovered, trying to back up/quote my position. Unfortunately, those who disagree with my information adopt the "attack the messenger" response. And that is too bad.

Sadly before Will came on board, LDS were being maligned already on this thread. As it continued LDS were continually being generalized as bad or stupid people and attacks on Will and Wade persisted (and I readily acknoweldge they did some attacking as well). This place is pretty toxic in that regard.