Robert Taylor Burton: Saint or Murderer?

[_stemelbow]

Again, let me reiterate that my "conclusion of murder" is my opinion alone.

Let me reiterate and clarify. My claim was challenged by Consiglieri that's why I quoted you. I don't' think its necessarily bad that you drew a conclusion. That wasn't my intent anyway.

[_Themis]

Sadly before Will came on board, LDS were being maligned already on this thread.

Only by some, but they usually appear to number more then they really are. Same would be true for other forums including LDS ones where they malign people who no longer believe. Unfortunate reality.

As it continued LDS were continually being generalized as bad or stupid people and attacks on Will and Wade persisted (and I readily acknoweldge they did some attacking as well). This place is pretty toxic in that regard.

Will is probably the worst for this behavior so it stands to reason that you will see more directed back at him as a result. Even Wade has not been free of insulting others. I notice he never calls Will on his bad behavior, and it's nice to see people like you and Consig who do. :)

[_consiglieri]

Let me reiterate and clarify. My claim was challenged by Consiglieri that's why I quoted you. I don't' think its necessarily bad that you drew a conclusion. That wasn't my intent anyway.

My reading of Rollo's posts seems to have been corroborated by his subsequent clarification.

Although the language you quoted from him was strong, I think it sounded stronger that it would have otherwise had Rollo not been responding to absolutist claims of Burton's innocence by Will.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_Rollo Tomasi]

If the events took place as maintain by Burton would you also say it was murder?

As to the cannon shot that killed two women and maimed a 14-year old girl, yes, the action was murder, in my opinion.

If Morris called upon his followers to get weapons and fight, they attempted to do so, and then Morris charged Burton is it murder?

Depends on whether Morris presented a threat to Burton. The guns had already been surrendered and under guard by Burton's men. Until the Morrisites were actually rearmed, I don't see them as constituting a threat of imminent harm or death to Burton and his men. Perhaps some 'warning' gun shots over their heads (which are much easier to control than a 'warning' cannon shot) would have ended any claimed uprising. But Barton admitted he shot Morris (twice!), and the LDS-published Contributor article said this occurred when Morris was "retreating" from Burton (in other words, Morris did not "menace" or cause any other direct threat to Burton's person, despite what Will has claimed previously). Unless Burton was under a direct threat from Morris, I call his shooting the man murder.

Sadly before Will came on board, LDS were being maligned already on this thread.

I am LDS, and have learned that one has to have a thick skin around here.

This place is pretty toxic in that regard.

It can be, but (from personal experience) this place is a breath of fresh air when it comes to freedom of speech and thought -- such freedom comes with hazards, of course.

[_stemelbow]

My reading of Rollo's posts seems to have been corroborated by his subsequent clarification.

Although the language you quoted from him was strong, I think it sounded stronger that it would have otherwise had Rollo not been responding to absolutist claims of Burton's innocence by Will.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Either way, my point was that people are adamant that Burton was responsible of wrong doing, whether murder or not. I think the quotes support my point, and even Rollo's clarification seems to support it. Sadly, neither side really knows, but it seems apparent conclusions must be drawn anyway. Not necessarily a bad thing, but one problem contributing to the atmosphere.

[_Fence Sitter]

Either way, my point was that people are adamant that Burton was responsible of wrong doing, whether murder or not. I think the quotes support my point, and even Rollo's clarification seems to support it. Sadly, neither side really knows, but it seems apparent conclusions must be drawn anyway. Not necessarily a bad thing, but one problem contributing to the atmosphere.

Stem,

So many of your posts seem to end in the same way. You require a standard of 'proof' (a la Whyme) unattainable by either side, you accept both sides at face value and you accuse both sides of engaging in the same tactics. I will request the mods transfer my screen name to you.

[_Nomomo]

I agree, Will being adamant that Burton was innocent of any wrong doing is problematic. But he does have the trial to support his claim. Its not like his claim is bald assertion.

If it is the case that Burton went into hiding for 2 years from the 1st indictment for killing the Bowman woman then that would more than counter balance and in fact devastate the idea that the results of the trial of the 2nd indictment support Will's assertion of Burton not being guilty of wrong doing.

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

I agree, Will being adamant that Burton was innocent of any wrong doing is problematic. But he does have the trial to support his claim. Its not like his claim is bald assertion.

If it is the case that Burton went into hiding for 2 years from the 1st indictment for killing the Bowman woman then that would more than counter balance and in fact devastate the idea that the results of the trial of the 2nd indictment support Will's assertion of Burton not being guilty of wrong doing.

Good point, and if it hasn't been documented elsewhere, then Will's examination of Burton's journals should be conclusive. Can't wait to hear all about it.

[_moksha]

This thread and its topic and tons of potential, but that potential died very early on.

Before it dies, I want to find out why the standards for becoming a General Authority have changed so drastically, and how someone who committed such actions could become a General Authority even back then.

I agree, Will being adamant that Burton was innocent of any wrong doing is problematic. But he does have the trial to support his claim.

Another issue is how a jury was able to rationalize letting a double murderer go free. The Utah Governor just the other day bemoaned the fact that a predator was let go from the State Hospital. Has our standard of right and wrong changed that dramatically?

[_Rollo Tomasi]

If it is the case that Burton went into hiding for 2 years from the 1st indictment for killing the Bowman woman then that would more than counter balance and in fact devastate the idea that the results of the trial of the 2nd indictment support Will's assertion of Burton not being guilty of wrong doing.

In connection with Burton's evading arrest and trial after the 1st indictment was issued in 1870, here is the account in the LDS-published Contributor:

Inflamed by an anti-Mormon sentiment, of which the pardon of the Morrisites had been the chief cause, a grand jury was led in the fall of 1870, to bring in an indictment for murder against General Burton, and for a year and a half, the latter thought himself compelled by circumstances to evade arrest. The grand jury that found the indictment was a packed jury selected on open venire contrary to statutory provisions. The petit jury, before which the defendant [Burton] would have been brought, would in all likelihood, have been selected in the same manner, with a view to convict. The judge was the most relentless and unjust magistrate that had been upon the Territorial bench. Public sentiment was inflamed. Under such circumstances, General Burton wisely kept beyond the reach of the officers.

In the spring of 1872, the Supreme Court of the United States, in the case of Clinton vs. Englebrecht, decided that the territorial law prescribing the mode of obtaining panels of grand and petit juries, which, as related, the District Courts in Utah had endeavored to evade, on the plea that they were United States Courts, was obligatory, and that challenges, on the ground that the juries had not been so selected, should have been sustained by the court. This decision virtually annulled the work of the grand jury of 1870, which had been very active in finding indictments, and many persons, including General Burton, who had kept out of the way because of indictments, once more returned to their families and their duties.

Eight or nine years later, another indictment was found against Gen. Burton, and while he knew of the investigation into his case, at the time it was progressing, he made no attempt to escape, believing that a fair trial was then possible.

On the 18th of February, 1879, he was brought up for trial before Chief Justice Michael Schaeffer, on the charge of having murdered Mrs. Bowman, one of the Morrisite women, who was slain at the time of the death of Morris.

Source: Richard W. Young, “The Morrisite War,” The Contributor, vol. XI, no. 8, p. 470 (June 1890) (emphasis added).

Of course, it didn't hurt that in the interim (between the two indictments) Robert Taylor Burton had become a General Authority; I doubt any Mormon on his jury would have voted to convict a GA. It's no wonder (at least to me) that Burton felt comfortable enough to stick around when indicted the second time.